9 replies to this topic

[JFarrell20]

OK, when talking about 'pot odds', we only concern ourselves with the bets to come??? What about the money you've already put into the pot?In other words:You're in a multi-way pot and you're trying to determine if pot odds dictates a call...say it costs $2 on the end to win a $10 pot. Really only 7-8 dollars of that pot is other people's money.So how do you treat pot odds in terms of how much you've put into the pot, as opposed to how much the others have put into it? Do you just treat the pot as separate money? In other words, not yours? Because technically it's not yours, it's the pot's now.This brings up another point, I'm not too sure on what Fold Equity is exactly, but how are you supposed to determine if you've put little enough into the pot to warrant folding, when you don't think you should chase???I mean, I know I deal with all this crap subconsciously while I'm playing. ie: Insticts, whatever. But I'd like to be able to really put my finger on it all, to where it becomes automatic what I should do in a given situation.If anyone understands what I just said, please reply. I'm really tired right now! I'm sure I just said something dumb.

[Spidurman]

JFarrell20 said:

OK, when talking about 'pot odds', we only concern ourselves with the bets to come??? What about the money you've already put into the pot?In other words:You're in a multi-way pot and you're trying to determine if pot odds dictates a call...say it costs $2 on the end to win a $10 pot. Really only 7-8 dollars of that pot is other people's money.So how do you treat pot odds in terms of how much you've put into the pot, as opposed to how much the others have put into it? Do you just treat the pot as separate money? In other words, not yours? Because technically it's not yours, it's the pot's now.This brings up another point, I'm not too sure on what Fold Equity is exactly, but how are you supposed to determine if you've put little enough into the pot to warrant folding, when you don't think you should chase???I mean, I know I deal with all this crap subconsciously while I'm playing. ie: Insticts, whatever. But I'd like to be able to really put my finger on it all, to where it becomes automatic what I should do in a given situation.If anyone understands what I just said, please reply. I'm really tired right now! I'm sure I just said something dumb.

Pot odds - it is 10:2 in that spot, or 5:1. This is $10 in the pot and then 2 to call. Money in the pot is in the pot...you can't get it out. I do not consider how much is mine, just the odds I am being laid on this bet. Each bet, each street - its a new decision. Folding equity - that refers to the probability when you are betting that you can induce the opponent to fold his hand. That's more a feel thing than anything else. What you want to be able to do is automatically be able to see what odds the pot is laying you, the odds to hitting your hand, and the impact of position. Always know the book play - and deviate from that based on your poker skills and the reads you have on other players. If you automatically know the optimal/textbook play, it really makes life easy - you can just do it.

[JFarrell20]

Are you deliberately posting after me??? lol. it seems like 9 times out of 10, you post right after me.Thanks for the advice.

[jogsxyz]

JFarrell20 said:

OK, when talking about 'pot odds', we only concern ourselves with the bets to come??? What about the money you've already put into the pot?

If you're thinking about folding, it ain't your money. Only if you call does the money count towards your call.

[MrConceit]

JFarrell20 said:

OK, when talking about 'pot odds', we only concern ourselves with the bets to come??? What about the money you've already put into the pot?In other words:You're in a multi-way pot and you're trying to determine if pot odds dictates a call...say it costs $2 on the end to win a $10 pot. Really only 7-8 dollars of that pot is other people's money.So how do you treat pot odds in terms of how much you've put into the pot, as opposed to how much the others have put into it? Do you just treat the pot as separate money? In other words, not yours? Because technically it's not yours, it's the pot's now.If anyone understands what I just said, please reply. I'm really tired right now! I'm sure I just said something dumb.

Heh, I started to write something about your being sure you said something dumb, but I deleted it. The WORST mistake you can make in deciding to call or fold is because YOU personally invested money in the pot prior to this point. That should have no bearing whatsoever on what your decision is. Your decision should be based on the pot odds, implied odds, and reads typically -- but never because you already put some money in. The reason it's sometimes good to call a raise in big blind isn't because you've put money in, it's because the pot is typically offering you 3.5 to 1 on your call. While this is because of your blind you posted, it''s not because you put money in the pot, it's simply because the money IS in the pot. Hmm I'm tired myself. Sorry if the phrasing was bad.And what did you mean about only conerning ourselves with bets to come? That's more implied odds, pot odds are purely what is in the pot at the monent of your call. When deciding pot odds you should be thinking about the likely actions of people behind you too btw. Say you limped in mid, it got raised in late, and everybody calls the raise. Then on the flop the sb bets out, if you have a marginal call based on pot odds, but say it's just enough, you have to consider if the preflop raiser is going to raise. Because if your call was marginal in the first place, HEY, you'll sure have odds to call the 1 more if he raises, but that isn't legit, hah. You know you wouldn't want to be calling 2 bets, so if you're rather sure he's gonna raise, fold the close call.Uh oh I'm starting to ramble. Bedtime.

[copernicus]

a bit more succinctly, how much YOU invested in the pot is irrelevant, pot odds is only concerned with the total in the pot, your chances of winning that pot, and the amount you have to invest to play for it. The formula for pot odds is the same as the formula for EV with no future bets to come, just expressed in a different form. The formula for implied odds is the same as the formula EV, and usually you dont bother with converting it to odds.It would be an interesting exercise for limit poker to make tables of pot size needed (ie implied odds) given common drawing hands, their outs, the expected investment needed to see to the river and the number of players.

[jogsxyz]

I dont feel as strongly as MrConceit and copernicus. In a cash game I agree completely. But in a SnG or MTT, you may never get an another opportunity at that many chips again. I believe sometimes you must call even if the pot odds aren't there. This assumes you're crippled by folding. Just choose the better of two bad options.

[copernicus]

jogsxyz said:

I dont feel as strongly as MrConceit and copernicus. In a cash game I agree completely. But in a SnG or MTT, you may never get an another opportunity at that many chips again. I believe sometimes you must call even if the pot odds aren't there. This assumes you're crippled by folding. Just choose the better of two bad options.

I didnt comment on a decision to call with or without pot odds, just why prior investment in the pot is irrelevant to the calculation. In tournaments there are many more considerations in a decision than TC pot odds.

[JFarrell20]

Here's something I've been noticing I've been doing a lot and I don't like it. I can't pinpoint what exactly the problem is, but i know it's a leak in my limit game.This happens so often I cannot even believe it. I lose so many bets this way.Say I have K 8 suited and I limp from mid-late position pre-flop for 1 small bet. Say 5 people see the flop w/ no raise. Flop comes 3 8 J rainbow (lets say no clubs). In other words I've hit middle pair with a strong kicker. First guy leads out, next guy calls, next guy calls, I call (hoping to improve to two pairs or a set), blind calls. Next card is no help.Bet, fold, call... now I have to fold here for 1 big bet b/c I haven't hit my set. I feel like I wasted a half bigbet there trying to hit a 5-outer on the turn!This happens so much it's ridiculous. Should I just lay down mid-pair/strong kicker in a big pot like that? When I don't have a draw??I'm not sure if the odds dictate a call here with say 4 others in the pot. I guess I could do the math, but I want to see what you guys have to say about this.

[copernicus]

JFarrell20 said:

Here's something I've been noticing I've been doing a lot and I don't like it. I can't pinpoint what exactly the problem is, but i know it's a leak in my limit game.This happens so often I cannot even believe it. I lose so many bets this way.Say I have K 8 suited and I limp from mid-late position pre-flop for 1 small bet. Say 5 people see the flop w/ no raise. Flop comes 3 8 J rainbow (lets say no clubs). In other words I've hit middle pair with a strong kicker. First guy leads out, next guy calls, next guy calls, I call (hoping to improve to two pairs or a set), blind calls. Next card is no help.Bet, fold, call... now I have to fold here for 1 big bet b/c I haven't hit my set. I feel like I wasted a half bigbet there trying to hit a 5-outer on the turn!This happens so much it's ridiculous. Should I just lay down mid-pair/strong kicker in a big pot like that? When I don't have a draw??I'm not sure if the odds dictate a call here with say 4 others in the pot. I guess I could do the math, but I want to see what you guys have to say about this.

The math is easy. If you think a set or Ks over will win the hand (and with no obvious redraws on this hand they probably are), 5 outs times 2 draws is 10 outs, 48 is a nice round but conservative number of outstanding cards, so your needed odds are (48-10)/10 or 3.8/1. Bump it up to 4/1 or even a little more for the chance that hitting your hand isnt good enough and youve still got plenty to call the flop.If you dont hit your on a 5 outer so (48-5)/5 needs more than 8/1 big bets to draw to the river, and you dont have that, so yes, you lay down.A more important leak is cold calling with K8 suited in mid-late position, imo. You are almost certainly behind an Ax or better A, and a small pair. When a K comes with no A on the board you better be confident that a raise or check raise is going to limit the field or there will be plenty of redraws out against you, and youre still going to lose some hands to other Ks with a better kicker and sets.I strongly suggest that you get poker tracker, or if you can wait a few more weeks, the hand history/data base that I will be releasing for sale. I think you'll find that anything worse than Ax suited is a loser in mid-late position, even in a loose/passive game.