party poker sit and go question

[daddypoker23 0]

Alrigt i feel that im a fairly good sit and go tournament player i was playing a 20-2 tournament i have 2000 in chips, chip leader has 5500 and the two other guys had around 750 each . the blinds were 150-300 chip leader was on the small blind and i was in the BB. the chip leader raies it to 700 total i have ace k off.. what to do here?? i think and think im like im so close to make it in the money then when i do ill play back at him since i can wait for one of the short stacks to get blinded off so i decide to just call if i flop a ace or k im all in but if not ill muck usually i woould simply go all in on pre-flop but i did not want to get out in 4 place so maybe i played this hand to passive either way i call the extra 400 and the flop comes 10-8-7- he bets 400 and i muck im still in good shape but then the short stack some how steals some blinds and eventually im the short stack and get knock out in 4 when i go all in with ace 2 and get called by somebody who has KK.. either way i believe that decsion when i had ace king was the turning point... how should i have played it with 2 short stack in the table?? should i have made a stand? should i just mucked and save myself 400? any advice would be greatly appreciated.. tx joel

[Wilderness 0]

I don't think that mucking AKo is a good idea. Yeah, it might help you squeeze into the money, but I assume you want to actually place well in the tourny. With the blinds at 300, making it 700 to go isn't that big of a raise, so I would probably be tempted to re-raise. Of course, a decent re-raise will leave you pot-commited or all-in before the flop, but I don't think you should worry about busting out on the bubble. Its not a bad play to just call and see where you are, but I would never fold that hand. I think I'd go all-in. You are only in big trouble to KK/AA, and either dominate or have a coin flip against anything else.It also depends on how he had been playing. Had he been raising a lot? Using his big stack and the fact that it was bubble time to steal blinds and take down pots? If so, I'm a lot more inclined to go all-in pre-flop. If he'd been playing tightly, you have to be careful, but you've still most likely got the best hand.

[Abbaddabba 0]

It depends on the payout schedule. If 1st is paid 80%, 2nd 10% and third/fourth only 5%, you definitely want to go all in.If it's more like 50/30/15/5 (for 1st through 4th, respectively), then call and only play strong if you hit.

[Markmadness 0]

Personally, when i play party poker sit and go's i try not to get too involved with the big stack when its down to 4, unless i am small stacked and going all in. I would have folded in this situation. But i would not let no small stack steal any blinds on me. Specially when the blinds are that high. When you play party poker sit and go's and you are fortunate to be the chip lead or second, you have to force the small stack to fold there blinds. I am super aggresive at this stage in party poker. You have no choice. The chip lead can change with one hand. You got to be the one raising. You may critisize my play however, in the last 7 sit and goes i placed in 5 with 2 wins on party. Pokerstars eeesh different story lol. I prefer Party.

[jogsxyz 0]

It depends on the payout schedule. If 1st is paid 80%, 2nd 10% and third/fourth only 5%, you definitely want to go all in.If it's more like 50/30/15/5 (for 1st through 4th, respectively), then call and only play strong if you hit.

The PartyPoker payout schedule for 1-table SnG is 50/30/20. You want to finish 3rd or better.

[JFarrell20 1]

Pushed all in pre-flop. Who cares if you get knocked out. You'll either A) Steal 700 dollars. B) Double up or C) Get knocket out on the bubble. On average you will steal the 700 dollar blind here. Don't play like a pu$$y.

[Spidurman 0]

you either push in or fold. calling is the most dangerous play - AK is a drawing hand and plays best when you see all 5 cards. As in this case, you failed to see all 5.

[goleafsgo 0]

definatly push or fold. Most hands he has there he is going to fold to your all in. If he has AA or KK then tough luck. Chances are he would call with AQ or even AJ and maybe 77 or higher depending on how he plays. Theres not point in playing for 3rd in the party sngs because so much can change so quickly with the blind structure. Just calling preflop is definatly a weak play. I think with AK you push their most of the time.Cheers

[holman3rd 0]

Pushed all in pre-flop.  Who cares if you get knocked out.  You'll either A) Steal 700 dollars.  B) Double up or C) Get knocket out on the bubble.  On average you will steal the 700 dollar blind here.  Don't play like a pu$$y.

Wow J, we agree! IMO, you have to push here. It's unlikely that the SB will fold, given his stack size, unless he has two complete dogs. If I were the BB, I'd call with any two. Yeah, yeah, the book says not to do that given pot odds, but this is a SNG and as the big stack I'd be putting the table on notice that you better have the goods when you play back at me. This would make it even easier for me to control the table, as everyone would be waiting for a Group 1 hand to get involved with me. Yeah, OK, maybe not everyone, but it will more than likely cause the short stacks to tighten up a bit.Folding or calling here is just weak. If you're not going to defend your blind with AK against a big stack who is correctly pushing you around, when will you? If I were the big stack, i raise you every time with any two if it was folded to me. You'll get blinded down before you catch your high PP, which is apparently what you need to defend.Finally, if you're worried about sneaking into the money at these SNGs, then you'll more often find yourself on the bubble than you will in first place.

[houdini2005 0]

Excellent question, I personally love sit n gos, I have favorable odds that I will end up in the last three. In your situtation with only 4 players to go, only one question would come to my mind, how well did this player work his or her cards earlier for the game? If they played tight as a rock, I might be tempted to fold on the flop as well. If I caught them playing loose, or just plain garbage handsBut, I would have definately reraised on preflop if not go all in, unfortionately AK is a troubled hand that normally wins, we only remember when it doesnt. Always reraise your AK, most pro's do that as well. Hope this was helpful.

[holman3rd 0]

In your situtation  with only 4 players to go, only one question would come to my mind, how well did this player work his or her cards  earlier for the game? If they played tight as a rock, I might be tempted to fold on the flop as well. If I caught them playing loose, or just plain garbage handsBut, I would have definately reraised on preflop if not go all in, unfortionately AK is a troubled hand that normally wins, we only remember when it doesnt.  Always reraise your AK, most pro's do that as well. Hope this was helpful.

I disagree only on the part about the the other players style earlier in the game. It's probably not relevant b/c if he's playing properly, he's loosened up b/c the table is 4-handed and he has the big stack. He could be raising with any 2 here, and should be. If you don't defend with AK, you're going to get slaughtered by this aggression.

[JFarrell20 1]

Wow J, we agree!

Good! You're learning something!!! 8)

[Duff_Man 0]

If you don't defend with AK, you're going to get slaughtered by this aggression.

Good point. Whenever I make to the final 4 in a Party Sng (usually $10) I'm always trying to finish first or second, third usually isn't an option. Because the payout for a 3rd place finish in a $10+1 table is $20 a net gain of $9. Where as a 2nd is $30 (+19) and 1st is $50 (+39). Granted as you go up in buy-ins so does your net gain for placing ITM. But anyway when it gets down to 4 handed don't play passively.My thoughtsDuff

[jogsxyz 0]

If you don't defend with AK, you're going to get slaughtered by this aggression.

Good point. Whenever I make to the final 4 in a Party Sng (usually $10) I'm always trying to finish first or second, third usually isn't an option. Because the payout for a 3rd place finish in a $10+1 table is $20 a net gain of $9. Where as a 2nd is $30 (+19) and 1st is $50 (+39). Granted as you go up in buy-ins so does your net gain for placing ITM. But anyway when it gets down to 4 handed don't play passively.My thoughtsDuff

You're seeing this wrong. The $11 is already not your money. The gain is 50/30/20. You should not risk 3rd place money.Someone else was saying putting the table on notice. What notice? If you push all-in against the big stack and lose, you no longer there. Again what notice?

[holman3rd 0]

 You're seeing this wrong.  The $11 is already not your money.  The gain is 50/30/20.  You should not risk 3rd place money.

Actually, you're not getting it. Folding AK in this spot against a big stack who could be pushing you around with any 2 is just weak poker. And laying it down hoping to "not risk 3rd place money" is probably the weakest comment I've heard in a long time.

 Someone else was saying putting the table on notice.  What notice?  If you push all-in against the big stack and lose, you no longer there.  Again what notice?

That would be me. Please read the thread thoroughly before responding like that. The SB (the big stack) would put the table on notice by calling the all-in from the BB with any 2. I'll lay it out for you:The SB (big stack) was correctly playing aggressively and pushing the table around. It was bubble time and play likely tightened up with everyone else hoping to sneak into the money (probably how you'd play). When folded to him, he should raise with any 2 and put pressure on the BB. If the BB played back at him, he could call with any 2. Even if he got called and lost, he'd still have a nice size stack and would put the table "on notice" that "You better have the goods if you play back at me". This play by the big stack usually causes the table to tighten up even more, thereby making the big stack's aggression even more effective.By the way, I sensed sarcasm in your response. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance for the curtness of my reply.

[jogsxyz 0]

This is game theory. It's all about expected return. No one knows you're playing AK soft. You aren't showing are you?If the payoff were 70/25/5, I would agree with you. This game theory matrices are sufficient complex that I cannot be sure I'm right. But I definitely like the semi-guaranteed $20 return.

[jogsxyz 0]

Also SnGs have a flatter payoff structure than MTTs. In MTTs it makes more sense to take the risk of finishing out of the money to try to finish in the top three.

[holman3rd 0]

This is game theory. It's all about expected return. No one knows you're playing AK soft. You aren't showing are you?If the payoff were 70/25/5, I would agree with you. This game theory matrices are sufficient complex that I cannot be sure I'm right. But I definitely like the semi-guaranteed $20 return.

I think this is a good example of how there are no black & white answers in poker. You're happy to finish in the money and get a decent return on your money in this structure.I prefer to go for wins. I'm not suggesting either is better, just different. Obviously, I'm biased towards my view, but I'm open-minded enough to see the value in your approach. I think you feel the same way. :-)

[jogsxyz 0]

I prefer to go for wins. I'm not suggesting either is better, just different. Obviously, I'm biased towards my view, but I'm open-minded enough to see the value in your approach. I think you feel the same way. :-)

I see the forum as an arena to debate various points of view. This is why I had a problem with a certain Mr. Know-It-All poster on this forum.No one can be sure of the right answer for many of the more complex poker strategy questions. Luck plays such a big part in poker that short-term results prove little. Although continuous losing would be a bad sign.

[Awful 0]

You need to play back with AK, and play it back for all your chips. Worst case is a coinflip. Best is domination. AA/KK: only 6 combinations left of each, and trapping with them is so popular, you can rule it out.You're never so far behind any other pair that the pot odds don't compensate.1000 chips in there, plus the 1300 if called for 1700 is 23-17, or over 1.3 to 1 which is less than the amount you're behind, so it's favorable chip-odds-wise (slightly) even if he shows you JJ and says "I WILL CALL". Add in some chance he'll fold on the pure steal, plus the hands he'll call with to "send a message", and you're up on chips on a push.Any A, Any K you have him looking for 3 outs. Every other combination you have a definite edge as well, he needs to catch while you do not, making you a winner about 64% of those cases, IIRC.Remember, if one of those 750s picks up a hand in the blinds, you're suddenly right there with them and paying your blinds before him. You have at best 3rd place cash locked up. The difference between 2nd and 1st is the same as the difference between 4th and 3rd. It seems different, but it isn't. You are likely a sizable favorite, and folding into the money isn't quite a sure thing. 6 BB's. Big stack almost minraising you, on the bubble in a sitngo. Smaller stacks that will push or be pushed in by any steal attempt you make as the button goes around, so you don't have any chance to pick up those chips again.Waiting for getting in the money to play back is exactly how the BB and most good sit-n-go players WANT you to play. I know I love the fold into the money crowd, they pad my 1st place count and when they try to fold for 3rd, that's what they do. Get 3rd. Remember, with the 50/30/20 structure, a first and a 4th is better than 2 3rd's in payout. In addition, the buy-in on the line is the same amount (minus vig) that separates 2nd, which is at least 60% likely on a push and call, from 3rd which you can easily get stuck with on a fold. Death or glory, baby!

[holman3rd 0]

I prefer to go for wins. I'm not suggesting either is better, just different. Obviously, I'm biased towards my view, but I'm open-minded enough to see the value in your approach. I think you feel the same way. :-)

I see the forum as an arena to debate various points of view. This is why I had a problem with a certain Mr. Know-It-All poster on this forum.No one can be sure of the right answer for many of the more complex poker strategy questions. Luck plays such a big part in poker that short-term results prove little. Although continuous losing would be a bad sign.

Jogs-I was re-reading through the quiz section just now. Check out Daniel's answer to quiz #2...very similar to my comment about "putting the table on notice". Just thought it might be helpful to hear my idea articulated differently from a pro. Anyway, I still see validity in your approach.

[jogsxyz 0]

Jogs-I was re-reading through the quiz section just now. Check out Daniel's answer to quiz #2...very similar to my comment about "putting the table on notice". Just thought it might be helpful to hear my idea articulated differently from a pro. Anyway, I still see validity in your approach.

I voted with the minority and called. 5825 in the pot. Getting a little more than 2 to 1 for the money. This is only a super bad call against AA. It's a marginally incorrect call against A with a better kicker and pairs KK thru 99. If I get lucky I can knock a player out of the tourney. Short stacks often get desperate and can easily be playing a small pair or even two randoms. I would be the money favorite or even the actual favorite on this hand.

I called on quiz 2. The pot odds were there. The SBwas likely to fold or go all-in. The SB calling andletting Daniel have position for three rounds ofbetting would be suicidal.There are subtle differences between a SnG and a MTT.The payoff structure of the SnG favors finishing inthe money. A MTT has a skewed payoff structure whichfavors high finishes.Thomas Keller writes that he isn't interested infinishing low in the money. He would rather flameout and be in a side game. But he says a satelliteentrant may be very pleased to finish in the money.Playing the AK is mandatory in a MTT.