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different advice from different forums. (plo8)


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#21 Smasharoo

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 03:05 AM

I'd love to see some evidence that Smash has won $40k off or Wintermute.Sure, let me pull out extensive records of games we've played, complete with hand histories. Wait, that still wouldn't prove anything. Let me contact him and the two of us will film a documentary detailing every hand history either one of us has of playing each other in front of a notary and the Pope, then mail you a DVD of it so that someone I've never heard of with one post can be satisfied as to the veracity of my claim.Since I'm not going to do that you bassically have two choices:One, you can take my word for it.Alternately you can believe that I'm a 12 year old posting from a home for the mentally insane who's never actually played a hand and just has a rich fantasy life.I really don't give a fuck either way.good luck.

#22 Mendacious

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 08:05 AM

Touchy touchy Smasho. Your claim seems more than a little preposterous, especially since it wasn't that long ago that Party didn't even have the $600-$2000 tables. It is actually quite easy to post a screenshot of your winnings against a player head to head from PTO. How many hands do you have with Wintermute? What is his alias? Without a little more information your claim completely lacks credibility. Regardless of what you think of the number of my posts, you obviously took the time to write your evasive response. For the record, Wintermute disputes your claim and says that NO ONE in his database has won more than 6K from him. I believe him because I know him, and because his claim, unlike yours is reasonable. Whatever you may think of him as a player, Wintermute posts honestly (the good and the bad) and backs up what he says.For the honor of your forum, you ought to back up what claim about players from another forum. You've been served.

#23 GooperMC

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 09:01 AM

I am one of the 2+2ers that followed the link over here, in fact I am the

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"If this isn't your ideal flop, what is?"
guy. For the record I didn’t say this was the ideal flop I said:

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This flop is close to as good as it gets.
which is correct.First let me say that I am glad I found this site, I am always interested in O8 discussion.Next let me say that both answers are correct. In a very tight high level game where all of your opponents are good players folding may be correct. However at the .5/1 level the players are so bad that IMHO this is an easy push. I think that assuming hero’s opponent has 4 perfect cards like A3JJ or AA35 is looking for MOB. At these levels hero’s opponent has a naked A3, or bottom 2, or a naked AA, much more often then A3JJ. I don't think you guys are taking into account how bad the players are at this level.Yes there are hands that beat hero but there are also hands that Hero beats. I think that the opponent has hands that hero beats more often then hands that beat hero so pushing is +EV. This is especially true if you take into account the amount of money that is already in the pot. Just stating that there are hands that beat hero isn't enough. You need to make an argument that, taking pot odds into consideration, those hands are so much more likely then the hands that hero beats that pushing will be -EV.If I was told that the opponent was a nut peddler then I would change my mind, but against the average .5/1 player I would push.

#24 Kendren

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 09:49 AM

Welcome, Gooper.Sorry I misquoted you. Wasn't my intention, just to highlight the opposite opinion from mine that existed over there. Hope to hear from you more.EDIT: Oh, and Mendacious... honor of your forum? Do you play D&D often? Jeez. Dueling pistols at high noon. Good day to you, Sir.

#25 KDawgCometh

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 09:57 AM

Smasharoo said:

The 2+2 PLO8 forums are laregely a joke
a truer statement hasn't been uttered. I post a lot at 2+2, but people seem to think that all of 2+2 is awesome, its not. THe PLO section is good when good posters post(mainly acesover), but the MHS NL section, most of the gujys just always defer to El D, ThaBadGuy, or Bruiser, the stud forum is good, but its weird, and the MTT section isn't what it used to be. Really the best forums are the HoldEm forums(except for micros, that forum blows). I'm not really adding anything here, I just wanted to highlight what smash said and to remind people that 2+2 isn't always a be all end all in all of its sections
Wine Notes for those that care about such pretentious things

#26 JacKingOff_suit

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 10:39 AM

To respond to a post that I think it's worth it.You can't assume your villian(s) won't have legitimate hands just because it's a $100 table.You can't assume your quality of opposition just because it's a 100 table.You can't assume your villain(s) won't have A234, AA35, JJ35... just because your villain didn't raise preflop on the button.You can't discuss pot odds in this hand because you simply don't have the odds, you don't know the stack sizes, you don't know you villains...You can't list a range of your opponents' hands just because PLO8 is not a game of 50/50, it's not a game of gambling, it's not a game of exploiting small edges...You can't assume it's all about criticism just because the suggestions at FTP are majorly geared towards folding.You can't assume your villains are weak-tight just because they suggested folding.You can't make incorrect assumptions at poker, especially PLO8.You can, however, understand that PLO8 is not about exploiting small edges, it's not about incomplete information, it's not about putting all your money in on the flop just because your 55/45 favorite, it's not about winning/chopping a small pot while risking your whole stack, it's not about once you put your money in then you must win that pot back.You can, however, ask yourself if your move is the right move, if you have really made the right decision, and if that decision is correct at all different levels.I know it's hard to do. Sometime while I am playing at higher levels, I will like to mess around at the $100 level unless my opponents won my respect then I will start playing with them seriously. I know this is one of my leaks.

#27 Mendacious

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 11:20 AM

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EDIT: Oh, and Mendacious... honor of your forum? Do you play D&D often? Jeez. Dueling pistols at high noon. Good day to you, Sir.
I'm not the one who has a picture of a dwarf as my avatar!For all the suckling you do of Smasharoo, I would think you might have an interest if the guy is a lying braggart, or authentic.

#28 GooperMC

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 11:46 AM

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You can't assume your villian(s) won't have legitimate hands just because it's a $100 table.
Sans a read, which we don’t have, the average player at the 100 tables isn’t very good. Therefore it is more likely they don’t have a good hand.

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You can't assume your quality of opposition just because it's a 100 table.
Why not? Poker is a game of averages. Are you willing to put all your money in against a manic with KK on a K9522? You could be beat but the majority of the time you are going to win. Likewise, the majority of players at the 100 level aren’t very good.

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You can't assume your villain(s) won't have A234, AA35, JJ35... just because your villain didn't raise preflop on the button.
I agree with that. I just said that it is more likely that he is playing a naked A3 or AA then A234 or AA35.

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You can't assume it's all about criticism just because the suggestions at FTP are majorly geared towards folding.  You can't assume your villains are weak-tight just because they suggested folding.
I have no idea where you are getting this from. I never even hinted at anything close to this.

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it's not a game of gambling, it's not a game of exploiting small edges... it's not about incomplete information, it's not about putting all your money in on the flop just because your 55/45 favorite.
I have heard this before and it doesn’t make any sense to me. Maybe you can clear up my confusion. I am willing to push all in with a 55/45 advantage every time. In the long run it will make money and it will generate action when I have 70/30 advantage. If I go broke so be it. I put my money in when I was ahead, that is what my bankroll is for.

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You can't discuss pot odds in this hand because you simply don't have the odds, you don't know the stack sizes, you don't know you villains...
Good point. Since it wasn’t posted I was assuming that they all had full stacks. You are correct though, we do need more info here.

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You can, however, ask yourself if your move is the right move, if you have really made the right decision, and if that decision is correct at all different levels.
You lost me again. Why do I care if my decision is correct at every level? The play changes drastically from the $25 tables to the $2000 tables so a correct play at 1 level could be incorrect at a different level. All I care about is if the play is correct at this level.

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You can't make incorrect assumptions at poker, especially PLO8.
This one really confuses me. If I assume that there are 55 cards in the deck or I assume that my opponent always has AA23 wouldn't those be incorrect?Overall I think that there are many different styles that make money playing PLO8. I play a very aggressive game so I hope you can provide a little insight into why a more passive game is profitable. I am especially interested in why you wouldn’t want to be all in with a 55/45 advantage.

#29 JacKingOff_suit

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 11:54 AM

Hi GooperMC, actually I am not responding at your posts at 2+2. I am responding to Gergery's, I think he's got some very good points but there are fallacies. I will try to respond to your responses later.Actually although I may sound arrogant towards some 2+2 posters in this thread, but if you search this Omaha forum (and some of the old threads got switched to other forums) at ftp, you will find posts where I show my respects to Gergery, Ribbo, and even Wintermute.

#30 mk

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 01:01 PM

GooperMC said:

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it's not a game of gambling, it's not a game of exploiting small edges... it's not about incomplete information, it's not about putting all your money in on the flop just because your 55/45 favorite.
I have heard this before and it doesn’t make any sense to me. Maybe you can clear up my confusion. I am willing to push all in with a 55/45 advantage every time. In the long run it will make money and it will generate action when I have 70/30 advantage. If I go broke so be it. I put my money in when I was ahead, that is what my bankroll is for.
The point is, you don't have to make it that hard on yourself. PLO8 is a game where there are many, many clear cut decisions to be made post-flop, and these are the situations you seek to put all your money in. It's really that simple. It isn't weak to fold what is at best a 52/48 advantage when villain (who is in position, remember) comes over the top of you. The fact that we at FCP and 2+2 have had such a thorough discussion on this hand illustrates its inherent ambiguity, and thus, why many of us at FCP advocate folding.Also, we don't like to play for half the pot.

#31 Wintermute

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 01:59 PM

Smasharoo said:

[b] The 2+2 PLO8 forums are laregely a joke and largely why the games on Party continue to be so stunningly soft at all limits.
I'd say this is among the most asinine of your comments that I've read. The majority of regular posters in the 2+2 forum are winning players, and have (as close to) proof (as is possible) to back it up, in the form of PTO stats. While I don't believe that *any* of the regular posters there is a true PLO8 expert, we certainly do have a good understanding of how to dominate lower level party games. Speaking of proof, I'm delighted to hear that you're bragging about having won $40k off me. Given that I have lost no more than just under $6k to any one alias according to my PTO database (which tracks my play completely from well before an exchange of these kinds of sums was made possible by introduction of higher limit games at the only site I play--partypoker), I see two possible explanations.1) You have indeed won a net $40k off me, and have changed your online poker alias several times so that my PTO stats don't reveal the one player who is dominating me regularly.2) You have won $40k off me, and lost somewhere between $34k and $50k to me, yielding a net win (or loss) of a much smaller figure.3) You are lying.A good rule of thumb in life is that the simplest explanation is most likely correct, so I'm leaning towards (3). However, if you want to offer even the first flimsy shred of evidence for your claim, just reveal any of my online poker aliases to the readers here. There are a handful of respected, indifferent players who know all my aliases and browse these forums; they can independently verify along with me whether you even know my online poker identity at all.On another note, given that there is a strong likelihood that you are lying about this matter, I wonder whether your results are as good as one might be led to believe by the tone/nature of your posts, of which I've read a few. I don't doubt that you area winning player, but to claim you've won $40k off me in these games is so ridiculous that it surely casts suspicion on any other results-oriented claims you may have made.FWIW, I do not preach a certain level of expertise without any proof of my level of competency. My results are publicized many places, for example http://forumserver.t...ev=#Post2924434The point of sharing my results is not to brag (mostly)--rather it serves as a barometer for others to gauge the value of my advice, better understand my playing style, and also as a personal measure of accountability... I find I play more carefully if I know I will share results with others. "Good luck!" to you too, and looking forward to your reply.

#32 GooperMC

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Posted 21 September 2005 - 03:03 PM

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The point is, you don't have to make it that hard on yourself. PLO8 is a game where there are many, many clear cut decisions to be made post-flop, and these are the situations you seek to put all your money in. It's really that simple. It isn't weak to fold what is at best a 52/48 advantage when villain (who is in position, remember) comes over the top of you.
Saying that there are better opportunities doesn't explain why your shouldn't put all your money in with a 52/48 advantage. The other opportunities will still be there regardless of how you play this hand, and in fact they will be every better opportunities because people will see you as an action player.

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The fact that we at FCP and 2+2 have had such a thorough discussion on this hand illustrates its inherent ambiguity, and thus, why many of us at FCP advocate folding.
I don’t see why you have to fold in an ambiguous situation. It is poker, every situation is somewhat ambiguous. Yes I don’t have perfect idea what the villain has but I can put him on a range and it is more probable that he has a hand that I bet then a hand that beats me.

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Also, we don't like to play for half the pot.
Hero isn’t playing for 1/2 pot. He has a very good 2 way hand.

#33 gergery

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 12:27 AM

Yes, yes you can. You can make lots of assumptions, because that is what poker is all about.You sure can try to put your opponents on a hand.It is absolutely about exploiting edges where you have them. You sure can assume people are weak-tight for not pursuing edges when they have them in a cash game.

#34 Smasharoo

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 06:32 AM

"Good luck!" to you too, and looking forward to your reply.There's not going to be one.I could post screenshots of stats, or your party alias(es), or mine, but it wouldn't establish anything. I'm just totally burned out of internet ego wars, and I'm as guilty of them as anyone else.Sorry I mentioned you by name on a forum you don't normally read in an offhand way.You win, I'm a big filthy liar, or whatever the appropriate statement is that will satisfy your ego.good luck.

#35 Wintermute

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:08 AM

Smasharoo said:

I'm a big filthy liar, or whatever the appropriate statement is.
That seems perfectly appropriate. Thanks.

#36 Smasharoo

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:31 AM

That seems perfectly appropriate. Thanks.Sure thing.Thanks for the car.good luck.

#37 mk

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:44 AM

Smasharoo said:

That seems perfectly appropriate. Thanks.Sure thing.Thanks for the car.good luck.
lmao.

#38 Rocketwadster

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:48 AM

it's like the chicken and the egg. There just doesnt seem to be a correct answer according to 99% of the population (it's the egg BTW). Is Smasharoo a BFL?Is Wintermute a car-supplying PLO8'er?Will Rocketwadster ever figure out how to make money at this game?So many questions... :club:

#39 Mendacious

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:48 AM

Wow, Lame!May I suggest for your next Avatar....[img][url="http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=704147"][IMG]http://show.imagehosting.us/show/704147/0/nouser_704/T0_-1_704147.png[/img][/url][/img]WORST BEAT EVER!

#40 mk

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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:52 AM

come on, regardless of whether the $40k is fact or fiction, smash's last response was fucking hilarious.




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