please stop playing hands out of position in plo

[Smasharoo 0]

Seriously.I know you can get away with it at low limits in games with terrible players, but it's really a huge mistake.Position is *by far* the most important factor in PLO and PLO8. The way you make money in these games is to put yourself into situations where you can control the pot size on the later betting rounds. This requires being in position postflop on the turn and the river where nearly all the money is made in PL games. Fold everything UTG. Really. 235J no suits on the button in PLO is a better hand than AAKK double suited UTG. Honest. Watch some of the 2K PLO play on Party sometime and see how many hands are played UTG.Position, position, position. If you want to play hands regardless of position, don't play PL. Play limit where starting hand value matters a lot more. The very structure of PL games makes position so much more critical than in limit games or even NL. In NL you can be out of position and still controll pot size to some degree. In PL you really can't. You'll win small pots out of position and lose big ones.Don't be that guy raising AA UTG in PLO. Don't be the guy getting freerolled for all your chips in PLO8 to a later position raise. Be the guy doing the free-rolling and winning the big pots.It's *by far* the most important thing you'll ever learn about PLO and PLO8. Don't play ANYTHING out of position.good luck.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Where the hell have u been?

[MrNiceGuy 0]

The very structure of PL games makes position so much more critical than in limit games or even NL. In NL you can be out of position and still controll pot size to some degree. In PL you really can't. You'll win small pots out of position and lose big ones.

I've been playing more PLO8 recently, and I'm starting to realize how true this is. Unless an opponent is extremely predictable, I generally know very little about his hand going to the flop, which makes it very difficult to figure out what to do with marginal holdings, and very hard to get value out of strong ones when stuck OOP.

[econ_tim 0]

I can see why being OOP sucks. I think there might be a some exceptions. If you are playing in an extremely aggressive game, with most hands raised preflop, then you might want to LRR premium holding UTG (if you can get most of your chips in PF).Your post also implies that we should play very tight from the blinds. I call the SB with a lot of marginal holdings (e.g. three wheel cards), but maybe I should raise my standards. From the BB I call preflop clown raises with a wide range if several people are already in.I guess you still play $2000 PLO8. Maybe you could post some interesting hands, even if you weren't involved in them.

[Petoria 0]

Has Smash ever posted a hand, or does he just claim to be the PLO/PLO8 guru. Smash, I do respect your play, but please post some hands. We obviously probably won't be able to help your game, but posting hands and explaining why you play that way can help ours. Helping each others games is, in fact, the point of the poker forum.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Has Smash ever posted a hand, or does he just claim to be the PLO/PLO8 guru.

Yes he has. Not too often, but every once in a while he does.

[Smasharoo 0]

Your post also implies that we should play very tight from the blinds. I call the SB with a lot of marginal holdings (e.g. three wheel cards), but maybe I should raise my standards. From the BB I call preflop clown raises with a wide range if several people are already in. Why?The only time to play any hands in early position in PLO or PLO8 is if you can get 75% of your stack or more in preflop with a great hand. Otherwise you should be folding *everything*.You make money in PLO and PLO8 on the later betting rounds. You make money on the later betting rounds by controlling the size of the pot. You controll the size of the pot by being in position.It's really that simple.This is why most high limit live O8 games are almost allways Limit. Because in PL no one will play hands out of position and the game becomes essentially pointless.good luck.

[Smasharoo 0]

I'd post more hands, but it'd be really boring. Most decisions are farily clear cut in PLO8, and while I could fold 100 hands where I fold flops you guys would be potting into what would be the point?

[econ_tim 0]

I'd post more hands, but it'd be really boring. Most decisions are farily clear cut in PLO8, and while I could fold 100 hands where I fold flops you guys would be potting into what would be the point?

You don't have to post 100 hand histories. Maybe you could just post some more general advice like this. I've looked a little on the internet for PLO8 advice, and there doesn't seem to be much good stuff. Ribbo's site is very preliminary, playwinningpoker has a brief article, and there is some other random site about O8 that has a few short essays, mainly about limit.Anyway, I think I've learned the following general principles:Make money by quartering and freerolling. Naked A2 sucks. Don't play for half the pot.And now:Don't play OOP.

[Chamonyx 0]

Anyway, I think I've learned the following general principles:Make money by quartering and freerolling. Naked A2 sucks. Don't play for half the pot.And now:Don't play OOP.

I'm not sure there is any such thing as "Naked A2" in PLO8, as long as you can limp and do the right thing after the flop.

[GooperMC 0]

Don't play OOP.

Please don't take this advice as absolute. Playing more hand IP then OOP is a good idea but it really can be taken too far esp. at lower levels. At lower levels the play is generally so passive and so bad that position plays a smaller role. Even my mediocre hands (like A3) are making me money in EP. I don't play the levels that smash does, so I can't comment on playing hand in EP there, but I know that it is profitable at the lower limits.

Make money by quartering and freerolling.Don't play for half the pot.  

Now this is great advice.

[BudBundy 0]

Bumpage.This thread should be sticked.Thanks for the great linkage provided by bdc.

[SGFULTON83 0]

Nice bump

[antistuff 0]

Your post also implies that we should play very tight from the blinds. I call the SB with a lot of marginal holdings (e.g. three wheel cards), but maybe I should raise my standards. From the BB I call preflop clown raises with a wide range if several people are already in. Why?The only time to play any hands in early position in PLO or PLO8 is if you can get 75% of your stack or more in preflop with a great hand. Otherwise you should be folding *everything*.You make money in PLO and PLO8 on the later betting rounds. You make money on the later betting rounds by controlling the size of the pot. You controll the size of the pot by being in position.It's really that simple.This is why most high limit live O8 games are almost allways Limit. Because in PL no one will play hands out of position and the game becomes essentially pointless.good luck.

it depends on the opponent. against bad opponents i don't mind playing in raised pots oop, especially if im the one who raised. what sucks is if you get stuck with a marginal hand oop against a good, aggressive opponent. this is why in some games you can't limp hands like 2355. in general my strategy with this is to just avoid games that are playing like that. in theory this post is 100% correct. in practice if you play like this you will get run over.

[BudBundy 0]

^^^^ I don't agree with this.If one doesn't have deep and extensive knowledge about the game and necessary post flop skills , he doesn't lose value by folding decents hands OOP in fact he saves money which will increase his overall profit. And probably the mental damage caused by trying to play hands OOP isn't worth the trouble money made by doing it.

[Osafune2 0]

I always thought that raising out of position pre-flop was bad? I am a pretty bad Omaha player I admit, but I dunno if I could fold A-A-J-T double suited even under the gun, I might not raise so as not to get over committed out of position. But surely you can't be expected to fold strong holdings like that out of position?

[fitzinabox 0]

meh. OP should be more open minded IMO. Where did he go? What results does he have? :/ I can tell i probably wouldn't get along with him.I use the check raise a lot in omaha and it is hard to do that when always playing in position. Honestly, i don't respect players that are afraid to play oop. Of course being in position helps a lot, but i just dont agree to only play in pos.

[fitzinabox 0]

meh. OP should be more open minded IMO. Where did he go? What results does he have? :/ I can tell i probably wouldn't get along with him.I use the check raise a lot in omaha and it is hard to do that when always playing in position. Honestly, i don't respect players that are afraid to play oop. Of course being in position helps a lot, but i just dont agree to only play in pos.

lol. i figured someone would of tried to shoot me down about this post by now

[bdc30 0]

he was obv exaggerating to prove a point, but the gist of what he was saying remains as important now as it was a couple years ago

[antistuff 0]

i stand by what i said before that position in plo is most important when you are HU and especially when you are HU against an aggressive opponent who knows how, where, and why to apply pressure. the more multiway the pot the less it matters and the better you are than your opponents the less it matters. if you made a graph of this i would suspect the curve of being rather steep.the problem comes because when you are in EP you don't know how the pot is going to end up going to the flop. a fun trick i sometimes use to control this against players who are loathe to 3 bet preflop is to make min raises from ep.

[BudBundy 0]

Do we all agree that pot control is the most important skill in pot limit omaha?This can be done by being in position.When in position , 1) You will pay less for draws 2) You will be able to semi bluff a lot more efficiently 3) You will be able to steal a lot more pots 4) You will get paid more often when you make your handAnd he was obv trying to draw attention when he said "fold everything from bb sb and co"

[meservery 0]

Does anyone know if Smash was talking about Full Ring or 6 max?In 6 max if you are at a passive table you can steal the button from UTG.

[ship 0]

don't be afraid to play anything decent from any position imo.. position matters a huge amount, but a statement as absolute as never play oop is so mehhhhhhhi think smash posted this as a guide for beginnersit's funny how you can always spot teh guy who is trying to make the switch to plo from nl