squeeze play here?

[Drwnded 0]

Playing in a PP single table 100$ buy-in SNG, 10-handed, blinds rise every 10 hands, currently at 25/50 level. UTG raises to 125 (remaining stack about 800)UTG+1 instacalls the 125 (remaining stack about 1500)folded around to hero in SB with 9,9 (stack about 1200)Since it's such a short tourney, only reads are UTG+1 seems loose aggressive, UTG seems solidQuestion: Do you (a) fold (B) call © raise to 450 (d) push all-in here

[Rocketwadster 0]

You need a better hand to call a raise than to put in a raise yourself, PLUS there is a caller of the original raise, meaning you have to have an even better hand. Screams of a fold to me, as it seems way to early to be putting your tourney life on the line with a lowly pair of nines. :wink:

[Drwnded 0]

You need a better hand to call a raise than to put in a raise yourself, PLUS there is a caller of the original raise, meaning you have to have an even better hand.  Screams of a fold to me, as it seems way to early to be putting your tourney life on the line with a lowly pair of nines. :wink:

That would certainly be the traditional wisdom, especially in a deep-stacked tourney with longer levels. In a SNG with levels lasting only 10 hands, sometimes you have to push marginal situations a bit harder b/c you can't sit around and wait for AA or KK to pop up with out blinding out. That fact, plus the potential to put a squeeze on, is why I posted this. By squeeze I mean, if you raise to 450 lets say, UTG will likely fold anything other than a truly premium hand b/c he'll be afraid UTG+1 will move-in behind him if he just calls. That would leave UTG+1, who only called the original raise, for you to deal with. Remember, your 'lowly' pair of nines are only behind to 10's - AA's at this point.

[looshle 6]

I really like a squeeze play right here, the situation is pretty much perfect for it if you weren't in the SB. You want position on the caller so since you don't have it, I'd push.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Remember, your 'lowly' pair of nines are only behind to 10's - AA's at this point.

Yes, BUT those nines are hooped once two overacrds flop, let alone one. You will be put to a tough decision after most flops, so you have three options IMO.Option 1: Fold. You have lost nothing (except your SB, but you were going to lose that anyhow regardless of your hand), and you may get to see the two hands that are out there if it goes to showdown, giving you an idea of their playstyle.Option 2: Push all-in. Very risky, as many hands will call this bet, due to the "turbo" blinds. The list of many hands doesn't only include pocket pairs higher than you, but also may include any ace-big.Option 3: Call. On the flop, no set, no bet.I don't like option 4 (hence I didnt list it), which is your "squeeze play", as you will NOT have position against either of your potential opponents, and thereby will once again be put to a tough decision on the flop if two overcards come out, let alone one overcard.Easy fold for me. 8)

[copernicus 0]

for this to qualify this as a textbook squeeze play, in addition to the fact that there really should be more knowledge of the other players and they should have knowledge of you as a solid conservative player.For a squeeze play to work (without other betting value) you have to have good reason to believe that UTG's raise is loose aggressive, and for UTG+1 to be a solid player who knows UTG is lag, and therefore might be calling with less than his normal "call a raise" standards. Then when you come over the top the lag drops and UTG+1 gives you the respect of raising a hand with two players with V$IP. Here your solid player is first in and the lag second, so you have much less chance of squeezing the solid player. I agree there is some extra pressure on him with a player behind him, but not enough to overcome solid values.Also, SnGs dont really put as much pressure to build a stack early as is being made out in this thread. The reason is that 30% or 33% of the starters get paid, instead of the more common 10-15% of MTTs. If you play SnGs for their high return on investment potential (and you should be because they dont have "home run" potential) then your main objective is to make the money and winning is secondary. You make the money by TAG play and not getting involved in large chip coin flips.You are almost certainly no better than a coin flip here and I would fold.

[mk 11]

I would call. Your hand has real value. I would like a squeeze play more if your hand was weaker. Seriously.

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for this to qualify this as a textbook squeeze play, in addition to the fact that there really should be more knowledge of the other players and they should have knowledge of you as a solid conservative player.For a squeeze play to work (without other betting value) you have to have good reason to believe that UTG's raise is loose aggressive, and for UTG+1 to be a solid player who knows UTG is lag, and therefore might be calling with less than his normal "call a raise" standards. Then when you come over the top the lag drops and UTG+1 gives you the respect of raising a hand with two players with V$IP. Here your solid player is first in and the lag second, so you have much less chance of squeezing the solid player. I agree there is some extra pressure on him with a player behind him, but not enough to overcome solid values.Also, SnGs dont really put as much pressure to build a stack early as is being made out in this thread. The reason is that 30% or 33% of the starters get paid, instead of the more common 10-15% of MTTs. If you play SnGs for their high return on investment potential (and you should be because they dont have "home run" potential) then your main objective is to make the money and winning is secondary. You make the money by TAG play and not getting involved in large chip coin flips.You are almost certainly no better than a coin flip here and I would fold.

You may well be correct here, and I appreciate the input. I do somewhat disagree about the urgency that you must play with in these SNG's to get into the money. I play these daily, and in my experience people play even hands like A,Jo and middle pairs very aggressively, because you don't have the luxury of waiting for hands with more solid values without risking getting blinded down to the point that you have to move in with a truly average holding. Winning a hand like this one often sets me up to coast into the money, then I can go for first.In an MTT, I fold in this spot. If UTG+1 had reraised here, then I also fold. Nines to me in this particular spot were good enough to justify the risk of playing back at a player who made a small raise from UTG and another early position player who only called. I did not want to fold, and I really didn't want to play 9,9 out of position after the flop either, so in retrospect I might've pushed. Instead I raised to 450, thinking if UTG/UTG+1 then pushed, I could get away from it w/enough chips to make a comeback. Raising to 450 also puts the squeeze on UTG.So I raise to 450, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls 325 more, flop:10d,7h,2sI have about 750 chips remaining, UTG has about 1000, pot is about 1100. Now what?

[copernicus 0]

I would call. Your hand has real value. I would like a squeeze play more if your hand was weaker. Seriously.

My bad. In writing such a long answer I wound up thinking this was an allin bet to call, not just 125. Even OOP you should call here. Its not going to be an easy hand to play, becaise I dont think its "set or fold" necessarily.

[Rocketwadster 0]

You may well be correct here, and I appreciate the input. I do somewhat disagree about the urgency that you must play with in these SNG's to get into the money. I play these daily, and in my experience people play even hands like A,Jo and middle pairs very aggressively, because you don't have the luxury of waiting for hands with more solid values without risking getting blinded down to the point that you have to move in with a truly average holding. Winning a hand like this one often sets me up to coast into the money, then I can go for first.In an MTT, I fold in this spot. If UTG+1 had reraised here, then I also fold. Nines to me in this particular spot were good enough to justify the risk of playing back at a player who made a small raise from UTG and another early position player who only called. I did not want to fold, and I really didn't want to play 9,9 out of position after the flop either, so in retrospect I might've pushed. Instead I raised to 450, thinking if UTG/UTG+1 then pushed, I could get away from it w/enough chips to make a comeback. Raising to 450 also puts the squeeze on UTG.So I raise to 450, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls 325 more, flop:10d,7h,2sI have about 750 chips remaining, UTG has about 1000, pot is about 1100. Now what?

this was my point about putting in a re-raise (rather than an all-in). Now what exactly...you have yourself a tough decision, and there is only one overcard. Imagine if there was two...

[Drwnded 0]

In case anyone cares about results:after the flop, I figured if he had two big cards like a,k or a,q then the flop just missed him. so I made a probe bet of 250, figuring that even though he's getting great odds to call that size bet, if all he has is two overcards he might still fold. He simply calls the 250. Now pot size is 1600, his remaining stack is 750, mine 500. Turn is 8h, giving a board now of:10d, 7h, 2s, 8hSo his call of my probe bet makes me concerned he could have 10,10 or an overpair. However, now I've picked up an open-ended straight draw w/the 8 on the turn, and I may still have the best hand already w/my pair of nines, and I'm pot committed. So I put in my last 500. Even if he has an overpair like jacks or queens, the way I've played, he's still has to be concerned I may have a bigger overpair.He makes the comment "i've gotta see what you have" and calls, turning over A,10 offsuit. Fortunately for me, the river brings a 6, giving me the straight and winning the pot for me.The final outcome is not why i posted this (results don't matter), I'm just trying to eval my decision making. Just thought it was a very tough hand to think my way through in this setting. I appreciate all the input so far; any other comments would be welcome.

[copernicus 0]

In case anyone cares about results:after the flop, I figured if he had two big cards like a,k or a,q then the flop just missed him. so I made a probe bet of 250, figuring that even though he's getting great odds to call that size bet, if all he has is two overcards he might still fold. He simply calls the 250. Now pot size is 1600, his remaining stack is 750, mine 500. Turn is 8h, giving a board now of:10d, 7h, 2s, 8hSo his call of my probe bet makes me concerned he could have 10,10 or an overpair. However, now I've picked up an open-ended straight draw w/the 8 on the turn, and I may still have the best hand already w/my pair of nines, and I'm pot committed. So I put in my last 500. Even if he has an overpair like jacks or queens, the way I've played, he's still has to be concerned I may have a bigger overpair.He makes the comment "i've gotta see what you have" and calls, turning over A,10 offsuit. Fortunately for me, the river brings a 6, giving me the straight and winning the pot for me.The final outcome is not why i posted this (results don't matter), I'm just trying to eval my decision making. Just thought it was a very tough hand to think my way through in this setting. I appreciate all the input so far; any other comments would be welcome.

The real problem here isnt that you raised and he called, so now you dont know what to do, the problem is he played flop poorly, and there should be no post flop decisions to worry about.When he hits the TPTK on the flop, what is your range of hands for your reraise and is he ahead or behind. Say you could have pairs 6+, AK, AQ, KQ. Thats 8 pairs with 6 ways, two pairs with 3 ways, 24 A hands and 16 for the KQ, 94 hands total. With that flop he's behind on 2 of the 6 way pairs and one of the 3 way hands to a set...15 out of 94 hands. Generously lets say hes only ahead 80% of the time. The 20% hes behind hes got 2 Ts (unless you have 2 already, 3/54 times and lets say that offsets running Aces) so hes got about a 8% chance at pulling out the other 20% and some of the 80% can lose to running cards...so lets say overall he sees himself as a 3/1 favorite to win.How does he most likely lose? to Ks and Qs...so he needs to price you out of a little less than 6 outs twice (because they are only both in his hand in 16/40 times). So say he needs to lay you worse than 4/1, and with fold equity thats just about where he is putting you all in and there are no decisions to make..you call and suck out with the runner runner straight.

[Drwnded 0]

In case anyone cares about results:after the flop, I figured if he had two big cards like a,k or a,q then the flop just missed him. so I made a probe bet of 250, figuring that even though he's getting great odds to call that size bet, if all he has is two overcards he might still fold. He simply calls the 250. Now pot size is 1600, his remaining stack is 750, mine 500. Turn is 8h, giving a board now of:10d, 7h, 2s, 8hSo his call of my probe bet makes me concerned he could have 10,10 or an overpair. However, now I've picked up an open-ended straight draw w/the 8 on the turn, and I may still have the best hand already w/my pair of nines, and I'm pot committed. So I put in my last 500. Even if he has an overpair like jacks or queens, the way I've played, he's still has to be concerned I may have a bigger overpair.He makes the comment "i've gotta see what you have" and calls, turning over A,10 offsuit. Fortunately for me, the river brings a 6, giving me the straight and winning the pot for me.The final outcome is not why i posted this (results don't matter), I'm just trying to eval my decision making. Just thought it was a very tough hand to think my way through in this setting. I appreciate all the input so far; any other comments would be welcome.

The real problem here isnt that you raised and he called, so now you dont know what to do, the problem is he played flop poorly, and there should be no post flop decisions to worry about.When he hits the TPTK on the flop, what is your range of hands for your reraise and is he ahead or behind. Say you could have pairs 6+, AK, AQ, KQ. Thats 8 pairs with 6 ways, two pairs with 3 ways, 24 A hands and 16 for the KQ, 94 hands total. With that flop he's behind on 2 of the 6 way pairs and one of the 3 way hands to a set...15 out of 94 hands. Generously lets say hes only ahead 80% of the time. The 20% hes behind hes got 2 Ts (unless you have 2 already, 3/54 times and lets say that offsets running Aces) so hes got about a 8% chance at pulling out the other 20% and some of the 80% can lose to running cards...so lets say overall he sees himself as a 3/1 favorite to win.How does he most likely lose? to Ks and Qs...so he needs to price you out of a little less than 6 outs twice (because they are only both in his hand in 16/40 times). So say he needs to lay you worse than 4/1, and with fold equity thats just about where he is putting you all in and there are no decisions to make..you call and suck out with the runner runner straight.

He never 'put me all in' - if you read it again you'll see i was the aggressor in the hand on every street. All he did was call my bets. I agree w/you that if I were him, w/tptk on the flop i would've reraised the probe bet to find out where i was, but obviously he was afraid of an overpair. If we want to look at this from his standpoint however, his biggest mistake was playing the hand at all - he never should've called the original UTG raise from early position w/A,10 offsuit, imho.Not sure the stats are quite as bleak as your analysis sounds though - i doubt he was putting me on hands as weak as KQ offsuit, AQ, or 6's after I reraised out of position before the flop.

[copernicus 0]

This is largely a matter of style and personal preference. I agree that you have to broaden your playable hands and play the hands you have more aggressively than in a MTT, its a matter of degree. I dont think that means willingly taking coin flips in an SnG.

[Loismustdie 0]

I hate SNG'S for this reason- handsthat I might fold otherwise become more playable because of the blind structure- I would have probably just called the bet and then tried to outplay him postflop, whatever comes out- the raise isn't that much and I always say this but with my style of play, I will get those chips back quickly anyway. I don't mind playing a shorterstack because I made a somewhat loose call.

[copernicus 0]

" He never 'put me all in' - if you read it again you'll see i was the aggressor in the hand on every street. All he did was call my bets. I agree w/you that if I were him, w/tptk on the flop i would've reraised the probe bet to find out where i was, but obviously he was afraid of an overpair. If we want to look at this from his standpoint however, his biggest mistake was playing the hand at all - he never should've called the original UTG raise from early position w/A,10 offsuit, imho. "I forgot to comment on this last time...yes I know what he did, I was saying that if he had played the hand better he would have had you all in and there wouldnt be any decisions to make.I agree that AT probably shouldnt be played at all, but they do get played..not just in SnGs but low buy in MTTs as well.