20 replies to this topic

[UNCpoker]

You are in the big blind ($100,$50blinds), 8 handed table.Folds around to seat 6 he limps, only thing I know about this player is that he will very often limp with strong hands. But will also limp with Axs or J10.Seat 7 raises to $500, very aggressive player, sometimes has good cards, but weak at times as well does raise like this with as week cards of Kxs. Folded to you in BB and you have Pocket 10's. What would you do with the info you have on these 2 players?StacksSeat 6 $3000Seat 7 $4200You $2800

[zimmer4141]

This is a tough spot here. I would just call, and push if a safe flop came. I think that no one play is really right or wrong, so I am going with a Stop n go. I call, and if the original raiser pushes, then I fold.

[strategy]

UNCpoker said:

You are in the big blind ($100,$50blinds), 8 handed table.Folds around to seat 6 he limps, only thing I know about this player is that he will very often limp with strong hands. But will also limp with Axs or J10.Seat 7 raises to $500, very aggressive player, sometimes has good cards, but weak at times as well does raise like this with as week cards of Kxs. Folded to you in BB and you have Pocket 10's. What would you do with the info you have on these 2 players?StacksSeat 6 $3000Seat 7 $4200You $2800

How many players are left, and where does the money start? My answer might be completely inaccurate depending on the answer to that.We can rule out calling. It's raised to 500 and you are in bad position with a scary limper and aggressive player behind you. If you were to play this hand, you want to have one of two things: have a deep enough stack to have implied odds for if you hit your ten, or get all your money in and eliminate your positional disadvantage altogether. If you just call here, you are setting yourself up for a terribly difficult decision on every flop that doesn't include a ten.I fold. You might run the gauntlet and catch them both with nothing occasionally, but I think you'll end up in serious trouble against one of them too often to outweigh the immediate 750 chip gain. I don't have much faith in this answer, given that we don't know where we are in the tournament as a whole.

[HoosierAlum]

strategy said:

UNCpoker said:

You are in the big blind ($100,$50blinds), 8 handed table.Folds around to seat 6 he limps, only thing I know about this player is that he will very often limp with strong hands. But will also limp with Axs or J10.Seat 7 raises to $500, very aggressive player, sometimes has good cards, but weak at times as well does raise like this with as week cards of Kxs. Folded to you in BB and you have Pocket 10's. What would you do with the info you have on these 2 players?StacksSeat 6 $3000Seat 7 $4200You $2800

How many players are left, and where does the money start? My answer might be completely inaccurate depending on the answer to that.We can rule out calling. It's raised to 500 and you are in bad position with a scary limper and aggressive player behind you. If you were to play this hand, you want to have one of two things: have a deep enough stack to have implied odds for if you hit your ten, or get all your money in and eliminate your positional disadvantage altogether. If you just call here, you are setting yourself up for a terribly difficult decision on every flop that doesn't include a ten.I fold. You might run the gauntlet and catch them both with nothing occasionally, but I think you'll end up in serious trouble against one of them too often to outweigh the immediate 750 chip gain. I don't have much faith in this answer, given that we don't know where we are in the tournament as a whole.

I agree that we need to know how the payouts are stuctured. But I don't think we should rule out calling here.With blinds at 50/100 and a 2800 stack, we have plenty of play left. Its 400 to call into a 750 pot. I don't think calling is all that bad. If we call, and dont like the flop, it isn't all that devastating. We still have 20+X the BB, which in a sit and go, is a reltively big stack. Since you said button is an aggressive player, he most likely will bet any flop that hits. If you call preflop, I would actually recommend checking a non-threatening flop. You characterized this player as "very aggressive" so I assume he wil bet most any flop that is checked to him. Check a non-threatening flop, and when he bets jam the pot. Also, if the original limper calls this raise, I would proceed much more cautiously and not go broke on this hand unless I flop good.Folding is also very reasonable here. You have a decent stack compared to the blinds, and this is a hand you can laydown. Personally, I dont like laying down 10s here to an aggressive button raiser, so I probably wouldn't fold. However, it is defenitely a valid play.Re-raising is also an option, but I think it is the least attractive. Min-raising would be terrible so lets rule that out. Any other raise is going to basically commit you to the pot, and I don't think we need to gamble here. Re-raising also makes us vulnerable for those instances when the limper has limped with a large pair. Bleh, I don't like re-raising at all actually.Of course we need to know how the payouts are structured in order to answer this question completely, but with your stack you don't need to get overaggressive with 10s here. Personally I like calling, and then inducing a bluff from the button. Of course if the flop comes broadway, and the button bets any decent amount, it is time to dump your hand. There is still alot of play left in this sit and go, so just because you have a medium sized pocket pair and a medium sized stack, you don't have to go broke.

[strategy]

HoosierAlum said:

With blinds at 50/100 and a 2800 stack, we have plenty of play left. Its 400 to call into a 750 pot. I don't think calling is all that bad. If we call, and dont like the flop, it isn't all that devastating. We still have 20+X the BB, which in a sit and go, is a reltively big stack.

We don't know if this is a sit and go. I'll elaborate on why I said this is uncallable.1. We don't have enough chips to cover the implied odds we'd need to make this call if we think we're behind right now. To call this knowingly intending to throw it away if we don't flop a set is -EV because we cannot be sure that we'll be able to get either of the other people in the hand to commit the full 2400.2. We have to worry about the limper in almost every situation. If we opt to call, he could raise behind us. If he doesn't and just calls as well, we are totally handcuffed. If the flop comes nine high and we bet a fair amount, we are likely going to win it outright when we're ahead of them and be uncertain the other times we get called or raised. If we check, and the limper checks, and the TAG bets, how can we continue with this guy who could be in there with a bigger pocket pair waiting to raise between us?

[UNCpoker]

It was a 36 player MT live tourney. It was down to 26 players with the top 5 paying.

[onlymyBgame]

strategy said:

I fold. You might run the gauntlet and catch them both with nothing occasionally, but I think you'll end up in serious trouble against one of them too often to outweigh the immediate 750 chip gain. I don't have much faith in this answer, given that we don't know where we are in the tournament as a whole.

im going to assume this is a single table.im also going to assume that the person i quoted above doesnt play singlet tables. you can completely rule out folding as dumping a hand this strong in the position you are in would be a terrible error. you are not chip committed by putting 450 into the pot and are somewhat protected from the limper limp reraising since there will already be so much dead money that he's almost guaranteed a call. if he does push, you can safely assume you're in extremely bad shape against his hand range and you cant call even getting 2+/1 pot odds.the aggressive raiser made a sizable bet in late position. unless this is his standard raise, it doesnt look as if he wants a call, so it's very likely that you have him 80/20 or he's got weak overcards that will go away if you push. if you have seen the limper simply call the big blind a significant portion of the time then i would say that your best move is to push and take the 750 right there.if you feel you are substantially better at bubble play than the rest of the table and don't want to make this slightly dangerous push, calling is perfectly reasonable.the problem with calling is that you're seeing an overcard a large marjority of the time and with two other players involved in the hand (assuming the limper calls) you almost always have a difficult decision.

[Footballguru]

Flat call. Flop comes with A or K i would check/fold unelss its check around on flop. All unders I would push and if somebody has me beat thatssss poker. if Q or J come on flop i check and see how the hand develops, butprobably going to commit my chips...

[strategy]

onlymyBgame said:

im going to assume this is a single table.

Good, because the OP just responded (the post before yours, I might add) that it's a 36 person tournament. You might want to rethink your answers.

[copernicus]

I lean toward calling, but you are somewhat squeezed, and if the limper has ever shown a limp/reraise then I could be talked into folding.

[UNCpoker]

OK, I flat called, not as worried about the raiser as I was the limper(since I know he has limped with big hands), well the limper flat called as well.So the flop is 2,3,7 offsuit, perfect flop for me unless somebody hit a set, which I know the raiser didn't, since he limps with small pairs. The first limper possibly limped with a small pair, but haven't seen him play a small pair yet.So to follow up, with the 2,3,7 flop, what is your next move since you are first to act?I bet out $600 into a $1550 pot to find out where I was.

[Swift_Psycho]

UNCpoker said:

OK, I flat called, not as worried about the raiser as I was the limper(since I know he has limped with big hands), well the limper flat called as well.So the flop is 2,3,7 offsuit, perfect flop for me unless somebody hit a set, which I know the raiser didn't, since he limps with small pairs. The first limper possibly limped with a small pair, but haven't seen him play a small pair yet.So to follow up, with the 2,3,7 flop, what is your next move since you are first to act?I bet out $600 into a $1550 pot to find out where I was.

I dislike just calling pre-flop, but if you do then this is an easy push post-flop. Don't fart around with this $600 bet. If someone comes over the top, are you seriously going to fold? If the answer is yes, then you should have folded pre-flop.

[UNCpoker]

Swift_Psycho said:

UNCpoker said:

OK, I flat called, not as worried about the raiser as I was the limper(since I know he has limped with big hands), well the limper flat called as well.So the flop is 2,3,7 offsuit, perfect flop for me unless somebody hit a set, which I know the raiser didn't, since he limps with small pairs. The first limper possibly limped with a small pair, but haven't seen him play a small pair yet.So to follow up, with the 2,3,7 flop, what is your next move since you are first to act?I bet out $600 into a $1550 pot to find out where I was.

I dislike just calling pre-flop, but if you do then this is an easy push post-flop. Don't fart around with this $600 bet. If someone comes over the top, are you seriously going to fold? If the answer is yes, then you should have folded pre-flop.

I debated pushing preflop, or looking for a safe flop and going with it. The limper and what I know about his play is what made me play it different.

[Swift_Psycho]

UNCpoker said:

Swift_Psycho said:

UNCpoker said:

OK, I flat called, not as worried about the raiser as I was the limper(since I know he has limped with big hands), well the limper flat called as well.So the flop is 2,3,7 offsuit, perfect flop for me unless somebody hit a set, which I know the raiser didn't, since he limps with small pairs. The first limper possibly limped with a small pair, but haven't seen him play a small pair yet.So to follow up, with the 2,3,7 flop, what is your next move since you are first to act?I bet out $600 into a $1550 pot to find out where I was.

I dislike just calling pre-flop, but if you do then this is an easy push post-flop. Don't fart around with this $600 bet. If someone comes over the top, are you seriously going to fold? If the answer is yes, then you should have folded pre-flop.

I debated pushing preflop, or looking for a safe flop and going with it. The limper and what I know about his play is what made me play it different.

That's fine, I actually might have leaned towards even folding this pre-flop, but obviously your reads are important to go with if you feel they are strong.Regardless, now that you have called pre-flop, this is a must push situation post-flop. I cannot stress enough how much I hate the idea of a $600 bet. What are you trying to do, get people with overcards to call so they can suck out on the turn for a relatively cheap price? The pot is big enough. No more farting around. Push.

[copernicus]

but push for goodness sake. $600 to find out where you are? You pretty much know where you are, once you bet the $600 youre committed to the pot anyway, and $600 gives the world the odds to call.

[UNCpoker]

Well after the $600 dollar bet, the original limper called and the raiser folded. A blank on the turn, so I pushed my remaining chips into the pot, the limper called with pocket QQ's. No help on the river. I didn't play the hand perfectly, but my biggest thing was how did the original limper limp with QQ. I had to think my 10's were good, maybe I could have played them differently.He limped preflop, just called the raise preflop, just calls my bet after the flop. But that's poker.I guess a few options that I could have played the hand differently were to either push all-in preflop and see if he would have put me on a bigger hand and maybe he would still be worried about the original raiser and maybe respected my all-in since I have a very good table image.Or I could have just folded, but I just don't see that as an option, if you can play pcoket 10's, then you can't play much.Thanks for all the advice, any other imput would be grateful.

[Swift_Psycho]

UNCpoker said:

Or I could have just folded, but I just don't see that as an option, if you can play pcoket 10's, then you can't play much.

I disagree. I think folding pre-flop is a very reasonable option. The pre-flop raiser isn't the one that worries me, it's the pre-flop limper. You said yourself from the beginning that he "will very often limp with strong hands." (And in case you think I'm being results-oriented by saying that folding pre-flop is a reasonable option, read my previous post from before you gave the results). Given both these guys to worry about, I think tens actually become somewhat marginal in this situation.

[UNCpoker]

Swift_Psycho said:

UNCpoker said:

Or I could have just folded, but I just don't see that as an option, if you can play pcoket 10's, then you can't play much.

I disagree. I think folding pre-flop is a very reasonable option. The pre-flop raiser isn't the one that worries me, it's the pre-flop limper. You said yourself from the beginning that he "will very often limp with strong hands." (And in case you think I'm being results-oriented by saying that folding pre-flop is a reasonable option, read my previous post from before you gave the results). Given both these guys to worry about, I think tens actually become somewhat marginal in this situation.

I Know what you are saying. I guess I look at if I raised preflop, then the guy with QQ now had to either call my re-raise or come over the top of me with an all-in bet, then I could have gotten away from it, even though I had a good amount of chips in the pot.I realize there are different ways to play this out, and you are right, the limper is the one that scares the crap outta me. Knowing what I know, what range of hands can you lay down to stay outta trouble in this hand. The bad position in this hand is what makes it so hard for me.

[Swift_Psycho]

UNCpoker said:

I Know what you are saying. I guess I look at if I raised preflop, then the guy with QQ now had to either call my re-raise or come over the top of me with an all-in bet, then I could have gotten away from it, even though I had a good amount of chips in the pot.

Actually, if you raised pre-flop (it would have actually been a re-raise), you would have had to push. Therefore, re-raising pre-flop and folding to another re-raise would not have been an option.

[copernicus]

This is long, so skip it if you dont have the time, but if my thinking is way off here then a critque of it would be even more instructive than my thinking through it was in the first place!

copernicus said:

I lean toward calling, but you are somewhat squeezed, and if the limper has ever shown a limp/reraise then I could be talked into folding.

The OP asks "How could he limp with pocket QQs?". I think analyzing that question is very instructive. Sitting in his seat I think Seat 6 played this very well, and I'll use Seat numbers because pronouns get too confusing, but "he" and "his" are Seat 6.He is in Seat 6, so pre-flop he's got 3 players out and 4 remaining behind him, inlcuding at least one very aggressive player...a good opportunity for a limp re-reraise. An all-in reduces his Qs to a blind stealing hand, foregoing a steal attempt from Seat 7 or 8 or a limp or two behind him. This late in the tourney I hate to get only blinds from a very strong hand unless Im critically stacked. The main risk of limping (vs a standard raise) is that he lets the blinds in cheaply if 7 and 8 dont raise and an A or K flop...a 30% shot if an A and K are already out there and worth the risk imo.As it turns out he gets his raise, but there are only 2 players left, including the very aggressive raiser, whose hand he discounts, so he focuses on the Big Blind. He knows the Big Blind called the raise despite being squeezed and has to put the Big Blind on a minimum of a high pair (lets say 10s or up for computation convenience.), AK or a small chance of AQ. He cant totally discount the Big Blind having AA or KK from the lack of a re-raise because the Big Blind has seen everyone fold except a limper and an aggressive player, so slowplaying them isnt terribly risky. (In fact a re-raise from the Big Blind might very well be a squeeze play by the Big Blind on him, so the lack of a re-raise doesnt tell him anything about the chances of the BB having As or Ks)He's got position on the BB, so why flip a coin and re-raise preflop, again considering Seat 7 could have a real hand? His greatest risk in not reraising is a weak Seat 7 flopping two pair, trips or a set...less than an 8% chance, so he's still much more concerned about the BB.Now rags flop, and the BB bets $600. He's got to believe that BB would push with any overpair to the board except the ones that have him beat in order to shutout any overcard draws, so the $600 bet screams to him that the BB is either begging for a call with AA or KK or BB has AK or AQ and thinks they are either good or at least have 6 outs twice. A call of the $600 bet gives the BB proper drawing odds to those 6 outs. So in Seat 6 he sees himself behind in 12 cases (cut it to 10.5 losses with redraws to a set beating BBs possible As or Ks) and ahead in 24 (but the 16 AKs get cut to 12 wins with draws and the 8 AQs get cut to 7 with draws), so Seat 6 sees himself as a 19/10.5 favorite..call it 2/1. BB has 1700 left and the pot if he puts BB all in the pot is 3850, giving BB well over calling odds. So at the flop, even discounting Seat 7 totally (in reality Seat 7 actually constrains him somewhat) he knows BB will call a reraise with proper odds. Does he risk leaving himself with 100 or 200 chips now as a 2/1 favorite? Many in Seat 6 would just push here without thinking, despite the near certainty of getting called by you and possibly Seat 7. (Letting Seat 7 in for $600 doesnt hurt him much, since Seat 7 is either ahead after a miracle flop, is drawing to the same cards as the BB or flopped a small pair and is drawing to 2 outs twice and not getting near the odds he needs for that draw).Alternatively he can look at the turn, preserving 1900 in chips (an M of over 10 unless blinds are going up very soon) if an A or K fall and he's forced to fold. If a blank falls as it did and you push he has the same decision to make. I.e. he loses very little by not pushing now, and gains the information and opportunity to fold later if BB catches the card he is going to stick around for anyway.The turn is another blank and BB puts him basically all in but he knows he's the favorite, so he's obviously calling.