15 replies to this topic

[SabaAba]

You are holding a good hand (doesn't matter what it is, but you know it's the best hand on the turn). The river brings the dreaded draw out there, being a str8 or a flush, or maybe even pairs the board (you don't have a FH). Note, I play mainly short handed games, but would like to hear responses to both short handed and full games. Thanks!2 situations, let's assume heads up for now:1) you are first to act, do you value bet and call a raise, or just check? When they bet and you know they hit it, do you call? Let's assume there is 10BB in the pot before any river betting. I know the answer is if he bets, you have to call 1 in 11 to be wrong, but if you just know he has it (say 4 flush on board you have none of that suite), do you call anyway? 2) you are in position and the player checks to you, do you just check not to get c/r? or value bet? What if you value bet and are now raised do you call?I understand there are many many different scenarios out there, but let's assume the players you are playing against are all loose and will call all the way even with gut shot str8 draws. And you've seen them do this many times. (This somewhat changes the 2) question as if you seen someone c/r river when they hit, it's an easy check, but assume for that point they don't)Anyway, I know this is not the most well written question, but I'm sure the more advanced players understand what I'm trying to get too. In a game where you want to make 3 BB an hour, it seems like an extra BB or 2 in one hand is a huge difference.Thanks for the help, maybe Daniel will use this one as his daily answer too :-)

[Abbaddabba]

"When they bet and you know they hit it, do you call?"If you knew they hit, it wouldn't be a very hard decision, would it.

[JaysonWeber]

When do you pay off a river betAll the fucking time... God I hate Poker.Oh and lets not EVEN get starting on fucking river wake up raises oh NO we wont.

[Kendren]

JaysonWeber said:

When do you pay off a river betAll the censored time... God I hate Poker.Oh and lets not EVEN get starting on censored river wake up raises oh NO we wont.

Does JWeb need a hug? :cry: Wanna talk about it?

[JaysonWeber]

*sniff* no.. I'm fine... *tear*I have to be a brave little boy in times like these...

[Kendren]

JaysonWeber said:

*sniff* no.. I'm fine... *tear*I have to be a brave little boy in times like these...

Buck up, soldier, you'll get 'em! :wink: And to the OP... generally, shorthanded, I'll pay it often. Too many people think they're tricky by betting the scare card.

[SabaAba]

Kendren said:

JaysonWeber said:

*sniff* no.. I'm fine... *tear*I have to be a brave little boy in times like these...

Buck up, soldier, you'll get 'em! :wink: And to the OP... generally, shorthanded, I'll pay it often. Too many people think they're tricky by betting the scare card.

Yeah I do the same, but when you say often, you not saying always right?I think I am paying off always, which is something I think I need to work on. Of course sometimes I know they don't have it, and I win the pot. I had AQ in sb yesterday, very very loose players on button and BB, so I raise they both of course call. Flop comes TJ3, I bet bb raises, button calls, I call. Turn is a T, I check BB bets both call, River is a 5, I check BB bets button folds and I call, he shows 78 for nothing, LOL I think I had the betting wrong, because I know the pot was about 15BB so I called figuring there is more than a 1/15 chance he is bluffing. As he did all night and paid me off :-)But there was a hand where I had AA in the BB, and even though I hardly ever slow play AA, UTG raised and the button reraised, so I smooth call. The flop coms Kxx, and it gets checked around. Turn is X so I bet, UTG calls and Button raises, at this point I know he has KK, but I decide to reraise in case he has AK, UTG folds, Button of course reraises, this is where I know he has KK, so should I fold now, call one more bet to see if I can hit my 2 outer (no odds) or just assume he has AK and call turn and check-call river? I called and check-called and he did have KK.

[Kendren]

You're exactly right, I didn't say always. In both examples you gave there, you had relatively solid reads on your opponents. You trusted one, and you didn't the other. In the AA example, it's hard to get away from, but capping the flop (if the cap is 4 bets) might have given you more about where you stood. But even if you are 99% sure he had KK, it's tough to lay down. But that's what you have to do sometimes. It's an extreme example, but you had the right read and didn't trust it. Trust yourself every time, and generally, you'll be thankful for it.

[No_Neck]

in limit if you are getting 10-1, I always call, I play party poker though and people tend to do crazy things

[LaydownKing]

You shouldn't pay off too often; limit hold 'em is all about saving bets here and there. If you save 1 bet every 100 hands, you've just increased your winrate by 1 BB/100!

[the_stein]

LaydownKing said:

You shouldn't pay off too often; limit hold 'em is all about saving bets here and there. If you save 1 bet every 100 hands, you've just increased your winrate by 1 BB/100!

lol Im about 80% sure you are joking

[whoomprat]

the_stein said:

LaydownKing said:

You shouldn't pay off too often; limit hold 'em is all about saving bets here and there. If you save 1 bet every 100 hands, you've just increased your winrate by 1 BB/100!

lol Im about 80% sure you are joking

He's not. See his "Sometimes you gotta lay 'em down" post. He gave away like 15 BB without a showd0wn.

[dms26]

whoomprat said:

the_stein said:

LaydownKing said:

You shouldn't pay off too often; limit hold 'em is all about saving bets here and there. If you save 1 bet every 100 hands, you've just increased your winrate by 1 BB/100!

lol Im about 80% sure you are joking

He's not. See his "Sometimes you gotta lay 'em down" post. He gave away like 15 BB without a showd0wn.

both of his posts are a joke, at least I hope so.

[STYLINHAWYN]

obviously you should fold if you think the river scare card beats you. typically if its just a low flush or straight scare card against one opponnent, I might call. If its and overcard/staight/and flush scare card against 2 to 3 opponnents, I already have the auto fold button checked off. But, I'll call everynow and then under right circumstances to keep my opponnents honest and to keep them from bluffing me in later pots. Last thing you want is for weaker opponnents to see your folding patterns and start taking advantage of your weakness.

[Actuary]

big reason I prefer limit.I can be wrong and call the river bet...10 times..and right once.NL..I suck. Hate those river raises.

[Canada]

the_stein said:

LaydownKing said:

You shouldn't pay off too often;  limit hold 'em is all about saving bets here and there.  If you save 1 bet every 100 hands, you've just increased your winrate by 1 BB/100!

lol Im about 80% sure you are joking

only 80% sure?you have to call then...