heads up in plo/8 river play

[bdc30 0]

I don't have the exact hand history, but I'll recreateit as best I can. Playing PLO8 on pokerroom and I get a hand similar to the following, in the BB.A 2 10 J Someone in late position raises a little more thanthe Min raise, but not the size of the pot, and it'sfolded to me, and I call.Flop comes 8 9 4 At this point, I have an OESD, nut low draw, and middle flush draw. I bet out a medium amountand the raiser flat calls.Turn comes 6 Woo hoo, the nut low. No help on the high though.I bet 1/2 pot, and again the PF raiser flat calls.River K At this point, I have no high hand at all, and thenut low. I check, hoping for a free showdown and1/2 the pot to a high hand. The original raiser bets the size of the pot into me,which since we were playing $2-2 blinds, was prettysubstantial by this point.Is this just an automatic call, or do I have to figure I'm getting quartered here, and if so, do you still call??Any commentary on the rest of the streets?

[Smasharoo 0]

This would be you don't play this hand out of position in PLO8.Fold preflop, check/fold the flop, fold the turn, etc.

[bdc30 0]

check/fold the flop, fold the turn, etc.

What??Aside from the maybe loose PF call at a discounted price from the BBhow can you fold on the flop with OESD, and nut low draw?How can you fold the turn with nut low and still draws??

[Smasharoo 0]

What??Aside from the maybe loose PF call at a discounted price from the BBhow can you fold on the flop with OESD, and nut low draw?You have ZERO outs to scoop.That's how.How can you fold the turn with nut low and still draws??Because you still have....ZERO outs to scoop.If you want to play heads up out of position and chase half the pot with the worst unprotected nut low on this turn and three outs (maybe) to 3/4, have a good time.Do you not understand how horrible it is to be out of position here?Let's say a non club queen hit's the turn, you'll bet right? Giving TJ with a better flush draw a chance to free-roll you, because you're going to call a riase with the nuts, right, and a bad hand a chance to fold.Winning the minnimum and losing the maximum isn't how you make money at O8.This pre-flop call SUCKS. It's not close, it's not a little loose, it's TERRIBLE. You have a VERY weak hand on the flop. Weaker than you seem to understand.Good luck.

[bdc30 0]

Because you still have....ZERO outs to scoop.If you want to play heads up out of position and chase half the pot with the worst unprotected nut low on this turn and three outs (maybe) to 3/4, have a good time.Good luck.

So because this guy raised pre-flop, we're automaticallygiving him credit for A2, as well as a better club draw and also 10-J?(and I appreciate that you're trying to help out hereI'm just playing devil's advocate at this point. The "good luck" at the end of your posts isn't usually therewhen I get the impression you think the OP is an assclown...lol)

[Smasharoo 0]

So because this guy raised pre-flop, we're automaticallygiving him credit for A2, as well as a better club drawand also 10-J? No, because he's *in position* we give him credit folding hands we're way ahead of, and we win a small pot, and caling and then on later streets likely raising hands we're way behind. Unless he's just HORRIBLE, he's fodling this flop without A2 and. Depending on the and, he'll sometimes slam it. I'd rather have 6789 rainbow on the button than AA23 doulbe suited in the BB in PLO8, because I'm probably going to make money with the terrible hand and lose it with the great one.The positional advantage in any pot limit game is huge, simply because the player in position has much, much, much. much more controll over pot size than the player out of position. In a game like 08 where you get to make so many clear decisions after the flop, it's massive.good luckAnyway, let's say I misclicked and called this preflop, I'd take a shot at the pot on the flop, and then not put another penny in this pot unless it was checked behind on the turn and I made the nut high on the river.

[Chamonyx 0]

So because this guy raised pre-flop, we're automaticallygiving him credit for A2, as well as a better club drawand also 10-J?  No, because he's *in position* we give him credit folding hands we're way ahead of, and we win a small pot, and caling and then on later streets likely raising hands we're way behind.  Unless he's just HORRIBLE, he's fodling this flop without A2 and.  Depending on the and, he'll sometimes slam it.  I'd rather have 6789 rainbow on the button than AA23 doulbe suited in the BB in PLO8, because I'm probably going to make money with the terrible hand and lose it with the great one.The positional advantage in any pot limit game is huge, simply because the player in position has much, much, much. much more controll over pot size than the player out of position.  In a game like 08 where you get to make so many clear decisions after the flop, it's massive.

So, Smash, what hands would you call with in this position?

[Smasharoo 0]

So, Smash, what hands would you call with in this position?Virtually nothing.If I can get a lot of chips in preflop with a hand like AAJJss or AA23 I'd raise a largish pot, looking to get all in on most flops.Mostly, though, I'd just fold.There really aren't any hands that play well after the flop out of position in PLO8.This is why it's such an easy game to win at. Play decent hands, in position, fold when you miss, make money, repeat.good luck.

[bdc30 0]

I sense a new "smash-system" post coming on...lolWhat do you consider a "decent hand" to play when in position?How far from C/O do you have to be to consideryourself not in position?

[Smasharoo 0]

I sense a new "smash-system" post coming on...lolProbably not. PLO8. while easier to play at high level, that is talanted amatures aren't much worse than pros, it's signifigantly more complex than NLHE in a lot of respects at lower levels, that is moderate players eat novices alive, and quickly.What do you consider a "decent hand" to playwhen in position?Because there are so many starting hand combinations in O8 and because this depends so much on pot size when it's your action and where, exactly you are positionally this is sort of hard to answer.How far from C/O do you have to be to consideryourself not in position?Most of the raising I do in PLO8 is to buy the button. I play hardly any hands from UTG-MP1 in most ring games unless the games not very agressive pre-flop and I can get in cheap and get a lot of value if I flop well.This may be bad advice for micro PLO8, I couldn't say. If it's regularly limped 5 handed and you get lots of action when you flop scoping hands, I'd obviously be inclined to limp a lot more out of positon.I don't play games like that much.Good luck.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Thank you, Smash!This thread should be the sticky thread.

[ryry3535 0]

yea, Smash, I think your advice is awesome when you're playing against talented players, but people call with absolutely anything at lower limits, so it's almost hard to win by only playing the extremely premium hands, perfect flops, etc.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

yea, Smash, I think your advice is awesome when you're playing against talented players, but people call with absolutely anything at lower limits, so it's almost hard to win by only playing the extremely premium hands, perfect flops, etc.

Actually many of his ideas apply to Micro limit too, you just need to make some adjustments.Some other factors needed in PLO8, as general in poker, are aggression, deception, and attention. Those (let's add discipline), we should call them the foundation of poker playing, without a solid foundation, you can't build a fancy house of any kind.

[Smasharoo 0]

yea, Smash, I think your advice is awesome when you're playing against talented players, but people call with absolutely anything at lower limits, so it's almost hard to win by only playing the extremely premium hands, perfect flops, etc.Because they call with anything it's easier to win playing only good hands.Do you see why?

[ryry3535 0]

Yes, I guess I see in theory why it should, and I just can't execute. I'd like to watch you play low limits for a while to see your actions, etc.