10 replies to this topic

[Scottp4175]

Could I have played this hand any worse?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200, ante 75 (9 handed) BB (t10275)Hero (t58855)UTG+1 (t87756)MP1 (t32864)MP2 (t12437)MP3 (t54774)CO (t1977)Button (t52320)SB (t15085)Preflop: Hero is UTG with [Ac], [Kc]. Hero raises to t4000, UTG+1 calls t4000, 7 folds.Flop: (t8600) [9s], [4s], [6s] (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.Turn: (t8600) [Kd] (2 players)Hero bets t7000, UTG+1 calls t7000.River: (t22600) [3d] (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t25200, Hero calls t25200.Final Pot: t73000This was literally UTG+1's 1st hand at the darn table.My thoughts:Why in the hell didn't I bet this flop? Turn - why don't I just type in the chat box that I have AK but am scared of a spade flushRiver - Look what I've got myself into nowSo I guess my questions are, should I always bet this flop? Since I didn't, what about the turn bet? And, should this be an easy fold on the river?

[mk]

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Why in the hell didn't I bet this flop?

I'm starting to get sick of seeing everyone make continuation bets on the flop regardless of the board or their hand. Okay, Harrington says to do it. But let's look at this situation. Honestly, let's put villian on a range. What would he flat call with pre-flop? Probably a middle pair, possibly suited broadway or another big ace. No middle pair is folding, and no big spade is folding. Betting and raising for information is seldom correct. I think you saved yourself money by not making the standard continuation bet.

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Turn - why don't I just type in the chat box that I have AK but am scared of a spade flush

At least you know you're behind now. Honestly, what's calling here that you have beat? Maybe hands like (QQ-TT) with 1 spade?

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River - Look what I've got myself into now

I fucking hate that call. The way he played this hand, it looks like a set or a flopped flush.

[copernicus]

With that flop, this isnt the place for a probe/continuation bet. Your not going to commit enough chips to a missed flop to shut out a flush draw from the big stack, especially if he paired up too (though with that texture it might me unlikely). Since youre stack is so close to the two other middle stacks, going up against the big one just doesnt feel right.Unfortunately, now that he checked the flop also, you dont have much to go on when the K hits, and I might check the turn. If Im going to bet its only going to be enough to make a draw wrong, so about 4k. He isnt calling either bet with a low pair or flush and straight draws unless he's a pretty fearless bully.Once he calls that bet folding the flop seems clear to me. I smell flopped flush or set also.

[gobears]

I don't mind the check on the flop. The flop totally missed you, you're out of position and you're going against the big stack at the table. You also still have plenty of chips left relative to the blinds.Like the other posters said, you don't have to always make a probe or continuation bet post-flop. Even with the K hitting on the turn, I think my gameplan is to get to a cheap showdown. If another spade doesn't fall on the river, then I'll call a small bet on the river. I'd fold to that 25K bet that the other guy made.

[strategy]

mk said:

I'm starting to get sick of seeing everyone make continuation bets on the flop regardless of the board or their hand.

As am I.

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At least you know you're behind now.  Honestly, what's calling here that you have beat?  Maybe hands like (QQ-TT) with 1 spade?  

A naked spade is also a possibility. It's a stupid hand to be drawing to (for obvious reasons) but people do it frequently.

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I hate that call.  The way he played this hand, it looks like a set or a flopped flush.

I don't see the missed flush bluff too often, but it's a play one sees from time to time. This could be a straight draw that got there, a set, a flopped flush, a donk two pair... it goes on and on. I am not against checking the turn to keep the pot small to prevent this type of decision on the river. You're never really going to know where you're at, regardless of what hits if he calls you.

[Scottp4175]

You all have opened me up to the idea that checking this flop is not a bad play and that it wouldn't be terrible to check the turn either. I am very guilty of the continuation bet, although I have gotten better at avoiding it when I miss in a multi-way pot. My river call was down right atrocious and has been giving me nightmares ever since, but I guess I'm going to have to get over it. I seem to make at least one terrible play like this in each MTT, but at least I feel like I'm learning from them and posting hands here helps also. Follow-up question: Say I check the turn and he bets between 5000 - 6500, are you all folding to this bet, calling and then check -folding the river, or calling and then bet - folding to a reraise on the river?

[gobears]

Scottp4175 said:

Follow-up question:  Say I check the turn and he bets between 5000 - 6500, are you all folding to this bet, calling and then check -folding the river, or calling and then bet - folding to a reraise on the river?

When I hear the term "oppressive reverse implied odds" - this hand would be the poster child.I think that I only call this bet if I'm sure thru reads that this opponent would not bet the river without some type of made hand. In other words, he's not tricky or aggressive. I'm looking for a cheap showdown, if he's tricky/aggressive, then I'm not going to get one.

[copernicus]

Scottp4175 said:

Follow-up question:  Say I check the turn and he bets between 5000 - 6500, are you all folding to this bet, calling and then check -folding the river, or calling and then bet - folding to a reraise on the river?

Tough decision, he could just be trying to vaccuum up chips, or could have the nuts. With no read on him and a less than pot sized bet, I smell a rat, but that just be because I now the way the hand really went.

[strategy]

copernicus said:

Scottp4175 said:

Follow-up question:  Say I check the turn and he bets between 5000 - 6500, are you all folding to this bet, calling and then check -folding the river, or calling and then bet - folding to a reraise on the river?

Tough decision, he could just be trying to vaccuum up chips, or could have the nuts. With no read on him and a less than pot sized bet, I smell a rat, but that just be because I now the way the hand really went.

Another Paul Phillips example. God, why don't I just change my name to paulp? Oh wait, that's because I'm nowhere near as talented.This is a guessing game. Every time you're right, you win a little. Every time you're wrong, you lose a lot. The fact that your opponent has position and that scary board puts you at a monster disadvantage, even with AK and TPTK. The decision is now, and even a small bet is not worth calling if you can't call a big one on the river.

[copernicus]

strategy said:

copernicus said:

Scottp4175 said:

Follow-up question: Say I check the turn and he bets between 5000 - 6500, are you all folding to this bet, calling and then check -folding the river, or calling and then bet - folding to a reraise on the river?

Tough decision, he could just be trying to vaccuum up chips, or could have the nuts. With no read on him and a less than pot sized bet, I smell a rat, but that just be because I now the way the hand really went.

Another Paul Phillips example. God, why don't I just change my name to paulp? Oh wait, that's because I'm nowhere near as talented.This is a guessing game. Every time you're right, you win a little. Every time you're wrong, you lose a lot. The fact that your opponent has position and that scary board puts you at a monster disadvantage, even with AK and TPTK. The decision is now, and even a small bet is not worth calling if you can't call a big one on the river.

In case my "I smell a rat" isnt clear, im folding here..in fact I said the same thing you did without bringing PaulP into it..he could have anything, fold it. Thats 3 in a row we agree on, is Armageddon near?

[strategy]

copernicus said:

In case my "I smell a rat" isnt clear, im folding here..in fact I said the same thing you did without bringing PaulP into it..he could have anything, fold it. Thats 3 in a row we agree on, is Armageddon near?

Ah, okay. I thought you meant "I smell a rat" as in "this guy is full of crap and I'm calling."Armageddon MUST be near.