13 replies to this topic

[KKsuited]

Sorry, I hate it when the thread gets to long, hard to keep up with.Anyway,The general rule is to never fold KK preflop. If you think your instincts are good enough to sense the 1/22 chance of AA being delt, then please fold.I asked Hoyt Corkins this exact question. His answer was...never. He said "if I runs into the aces, that's fine, I'll go do something else."I've seen the Josh Arieh example before. First, he never said and no one ever saw that he had KK. Josh will tell you himself, he bullchits with the best of them. I think he had AK there as was trying to move the first raiser off his hand. Then he got reraised by another player and had to fold. Notice how Josh only showed 1 card. Why was that? Hmmmm.Anyway, don't think folding KK preflop is some expert play. QQ might be, but not KK. If you raise and get reraised by 3 different people, then you maybe against aces, but that will rarely happen. If there is only one other raiser in the pot, no way folding KK is correct.Hell, ask Daniel, I bet he'll generally agree with the don't fold idea.

[pkarcher]

KKsuited said:

The general rule is to never fold KK preflop. If you think your instincts are good enough to sense the 1/22 chance of AA being delt, then please fold.

This 1/22 figure keeps coming up. I think in the previous thread someone said there's a 1/22 chance that your KK is beat by Aces which to me seemed off but odds I would be willing to take anyway. So I decided to do the math and figure out where it came from. You are 1/221 to be dealt Aces. So in a 10 person game 1 in 22 hands someone will be dealt aces. OK. I get it. But the original poster was talking of a 4 person game, so only 1 in 55 hands will someone be dealt Aces. And the odds that in a 4 man game someone will be dealt KK and the other AA? 1 in 3025 hands. So folding KK preflop is for tards.

[KKsuited]

pkarcher said:

KKsuited said:

The general rule is to never fold KK preflop. If you think your instincts are good enough to sense the 1/22 chance of AA being delt, then please fold.

This 1/22 figure keeps coming up. I think in the previous thread someone said there's a 1/22 chance that your KK is beat by Aces which to me seemed off but odds I would be willing to take anyway. So I decided to do the math and figure out where it came from. You are 1/221 to be dealt Aces. So in a 10 person game 1 in 22 hands someone will be dealt aces. OK. I get it. But the original poster was talking of a 4 person game, so only 1 in 55 hands will someone be dealt Aces. And the odds that in a 4 man game someone will be dealt KK and the other AA? 1 in 3025 hands. So folding KK preflop is for tards.

I agree in general that folding KK preflop is for tards.I need to find it somewhere, but I believe the 1/22 odds number is for a full game. I'll try to look it up another day.

[MasterLJ]

I don't think there really is a universal condemnation for folding KK. What if you play cash games? You may be favored 60 to 20 to 20, but that's still not great. I personally would rather have much more control than that. I generally don't go all-in without the top 3 nuts. I won't call all-ins with anything less than trips with the rare exception of 2 pair on the flop.So when you're at a NL table cash game with 5 people betting HUGE before the flop, you may just want to put down those Kings and put your money into areas where you have much more control. You have a 4/22 chance of being absolutely burried by Rockets, and on top of that you have to believe that someone has an ace.

[pkarcher]

MasterLJ said:

So when you're at a NL table cash game with 5 people betting HUGE before the flop, you may just want to put down those Kings and put your money into areas where you have much more control. You have a 4/22 chance of being absolutely burried by Rockets, and on top of that you have to believe that someone has an ace.

You never have a 4 in 22 chance of being buried by rockets unless you live in bizarro world. There is no way that is possible. If you are in a full game there is statistically a 1 in 22 chance that one opponent has AA. And besides only two people can have AA at any time so I'd love to see how your math on how you get 4 in 22. Besides if you are afraid to play KK, what are you not afraid to play. The odds that you are buried by rockets is miniscule compared to the odds that you have your opponent buried.

[MasterLJ]

Ok, so maybe my assertion about 4/22 was wrong, but sometimes it depends on your motivations. I had KK buried by AA last night. I wasn't afraid to play them, but I lost 2/3 of my chips.In cash games or what not there's no hurry or urgency. There's no reason to put all your chips in pre-flop. I put them down to multi way action if I don't feel right about it.

[KKsuited]

Actually, in cash games you should be even less likely to fold KK preflop. In a tournament there is the survival factor. In a cash game, you can rebuy.If you fold KK in a cash game (unless there is the raise, reraise, and another reraise type situation), you're playing with scared money and scared money never wins. You have to be willing to lose all the money in front of you in a cash game. If that is to tough to take, you're playing above the limit you should be. The when to call/go all-in you described is too tight to be a really good player. If you don't think so, maybe you should read Doyle Brunson's NL section in Supersystem.

[MasterLJ]

I disagree. I'd rather be a 10 to 1 favorite to double my money than have a 40% shot at quadrupling my money.Over 10 scenarios (different days) with 100 bucks (each) you have...1600 total winnings for the 40%,1800 total winnings for the 90% with only doubling.Of course you can get into a more detailed model with you quadrupling your earnings twice in the same day... that sort of thing.I personally like having alot more control in where I put my money especially at a lose table where you cannot count on people only going all in with the top 5% of hands pre-flop. Not to mention that putting your money in before the flop negates your abilities as a player. If you think you are better than the people at the table, why play a pure statistical game?I don't think there's really any clear-cut correct answer. Poker is a funny game in that success comes in different flavors. If you consistantly call a 4-way all-in with KK and win, more power to you. If you consistantly put down KK or QQ to a 4-way all-in and make money, more power to you.There's really no right or wrong approach.

[KKsuited]

I must have missed something in the posts. Where did the "4 way all-in" stuff come from. That's much different situation than what I thought we were talking about.The original poster was talking about a head up situation. Obviously, in a 4 way situation, you are very likely to be running into aces.

[budwayne]

I was playing in the $1/$2 no limit game at the plaza over the weekend on Jan 14-16 and I saw KK in the bigblind. there were 9 people at my table and the 1st to act folds, and the next one calls $2 everyone else folds to the SB who calls up and i make it $6 to go, the guy who made the initial call pushes over the top for $46 and the SB folds. I look back at my two red kings and never once thought about folding them. I made the call showed my cards and knew that i was a huge dog...but i flopped my king and thats all it took. Now i polietly appologized to the man with the rockets and tipped the dealer when the guy in the SB starts running his mouth. He is going off about how bad of a call i made when the guy pushed over top of my $6 for $46 saying it was a clear sign of rockets. I dont know about all of your but ive had WAY to many people push over top of my 2xBB bet with QQ, JJ, 10/10, A/K suited and even worse that there really isnt anything I was going to fold to. An another point...who pushes for $6 just to buy a $12 pot with rockets...i mean you dont want to get sucked out on the flop, but with AA you want to make some more money than $12...i dont know...i dont think theres much of a discussion..you really cant afford to throw away your kings if its headsup preflop. I can see QQ and i personally fold JJ a lot...but not KK

[jayistheman]

MasterLJ said:

I don't think there really is a universal condemnation for folding KK. What if you play cash games? You may be favored 60 to 20 to 20, but that's still not great. I personally would rather have much more control than that. I generally don't go all-in without the top 3 nuts. I won't call all-ins with anything less than trips with the rare exception of 2 pair on the flop.So when you're at a NL table cash game with 5 people betting HUGE before the flop, you may just want to put down those Kings and put your money into areas where you have much more control. You have a 4/22 chance of being absolutely burried by Rockets, and on top of that you have to believe that someone has an ace.

cash games are all about pushing small edges because you can play forever... the small edges will add up. a tournament is the only situation where folding KK is feasable really.... unless...one time i was in a NL 100.... playing out of my bankroll at the time (flame away) and i had KK in late pos. there was a big raise, which i loved.. because it didnt mean AA... then there was a smooth call... then there was a reraise.... then there was an all in.... i deduced that one of these 4 had AA and if not then one of them would surely make a set... i wasnt worried about losing to a pair of A flopping because i assumed that all of the aces were out of the deck......i folded my hand to preserve my precious bankroll, and saw JJ smack AK and AA (along with a few other weaker hands)with a J on the turn.yeah, i contradicted myself.... whuddya gonna do bout it... i doubt ill ever run into the same situation again, so ill be holding my kings at least until an A flops from now on.

[Wilderness]

jayistheman said:

cash games are all about pushing small edges because you can play forever... the small edges will add up. a tournament is the only situation where folding KK is feasable really.... unless...one time i was in a NL 100.... playing out of my bankroll at the time (flame away) and i had KK in late pos. there was a big raise, which i loved.. because it didnt mean AA... then there was a smooth call... then there was a reraise.... then there was an all in.... i deduced that one of these 4 had AA and if not then one of them would surely make a set... i wasnt worried about losing to a pair of A flopping because i assumed that all of the aces were out of the deck......i folded my hand to preserve my precious bankroll, and saw JJ smack AK and AA (along with a few other weaker hands)with a J on the turn.yeah, i contradicted myself.... whuddya gonna do bout it... i doubt ill ever run into the same situation again, so ill be holding my kings at least until an A flops from now on.

Yeah, cash games are definitely about pushing whenever you have an edge, because that's how you make money in the long run. If you ever fold when you are head, its costing you money.You were playing above your bankroll? God, that's so dumb ... lol j/k. In the situation you mentioned it certainly seems like a good fold. With all that action, one of them should have AA, and indeed, you would have been drawing to 1 out.

[Abbaddabba]

If you're against 3 raisers, you're probably going to have 3 callers, so long as the all in isn't THAT much larger than the initial bets. If that's the case, then you want to be in on the pot, regardless of if one of them has the aces. You're still heavily favored to the other 2, and given how much you have in the pot already. Though your EV will probably be negative if one of them has aces, your EV if one of them DOESNT have aces is quite high. If you are absolutely certain that one has aces, consider folding. If it's a 50/50 shot that one has aces, you still should go for it. Considering how rare aces are, i dont think you could assign a 50% probability of someone holding it even. It'd be lower. Even with that style of betting, there're a lot of other things that reraises could be done on.

[JediFlopper]

If you are going to fold KK to a reraise, I want you on my right for the rest of eternity