worst overpair on flop vs. check/raise (lhe)

[econ_tim 0]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converterPreflop: econ_tim is Button with [9h], [9c]. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, econ_tim calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (15.50 SB) [4s], [2d], [8h] (5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, econ_tim bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, econ_tim calls.Turn: (11.75 BB) [6c] (4 players)BB bets, BB calls, CO calls.River: (17.75 BB) [6s] (3 players)BB checks, CO checks, econ_tim bets, BB calls, CO folds.Final Pot: 19.75 BBVillain hasn't done anything interesting yet. He has neither proven himself a fish or a good player.I didn't see any point in 3-betting flop, but should I just call the turn?

[custom36 5]

Any read on the CO?I'm probably just calling the turn and river.

[kilgoretrout 0]

i like getting that extra bet in on the turn, especially after you just called the flop and a good card came. since you were last to act on the flop and the BB check raised you with alot of players left behind him it really looks like he is trying to protect a vulnerable hand rather than checkraiseing something like 2-pair for value (looks like he has 8-x to me). The CO has played passively so far postflop so you're probably ahead of him too (looks like a big ace).i think your turn raise and river bet both have a good edge, well played.

[Dirtydutch 9]

I'm calling the turn.

[calbear11 0]

What about checking this river?I know it's a huge mistake against 8x, but I've seen 1/2 players slow down HUGE hands to a turn raise. I'm talking check/calling middle sets on relatively safe boards, etc...And if we are undecided about calling or raising the turn we must have some doubt about whether or not our hand is good. Against the CO I see absolutely no reason to bet unless he would call with AK or AQ high which is pretty unlikely. If he calls us he probably has us beat (but most likely he will just fold his ace high). So do we have the range of hands the BB could have beat? I'm not entirely sure. I'm not saying checking the river is the best play, but I think it is an option to seriously consider. What about you guys?

[wrto4556 0]

yeah.i like the turn raise, but im doing it for a free showdown. Although...the river may have counterfieted his two pair (if that's what he had).interestingi think the river is close...and right now i have no clue which is best.

[KDawgCometh 2]

I think I'm checking the river, but tim, this is the best hand I've seen you play, very nice

[DCSports92GSR 0]

Good Job.I am going to check / call the river though.

[wrto4556 0]

I think I'm checking the river, but tim, this is the best hand I've seen you play, very nice

what are you afraid of?

[DCSports92GSR 0]

I think I'm checking the river, but tim, this is the best hand I've seen you play, very nice

what are you afraid of?

Didn't you just say you would raise the turn for a free showdown... thus meaning you would check the river as well?

[KDawgCometh 2]

I think I'm checking the river, but tim, this is the best hand I've seen you play, very nice

what are you afraid of?

stank ass broads, oh wait this hand, umm, yeah, good point

[screech 0]

I didn't see any point in 3-betting flop

You're right. If you are ahead, your hand is vulnerable. Waiting for the turn to raise when a blank falls and your equity skyrockets is a great play. It seems like the CO has two overs, and his turn calls verify that. The big blind has slowed down, making the chances that he has AA-QQ unlikely. He still may have JJ/TT, but he could also have a 98s, 87s, A8, or 77. I doubt the BB had two pair on the flop since it was 3 bet on PF, but who knows. The river bet is close. It's very unlikely that he's going to raise, so your hand need only to be good more than 50% (assuming the CO lets his overs go) of the time to make this bet. Most players will call 3-bets from the BB with JJ/TT. Some will call with A8s, T9s, 98s. With no reads, I check behind.

[calbear11 0]

I'm a little concerned about 1010. I would have probably played 10's very similarly from the BB on this hand. A passive player might even have jacks in this spot. 86 and 46 are both possible though very unlikely. I have no idea why the BB would check raise 35 here, but I have seen 1/2 players do stranger things. I think 8x is the most likely holding of the BB, but I'm not sure if I'm more than 50% sure. If I think that's what he will have say 40% of the time and will always call me when he has me beat or fold when he has worse than 8x checking the river is correct. Determing whether or not that percentage is greater than or less than 50 is pretty tough in this spot in my opinion.

[wrto4556 0]

8x and other hands like: 77, 82, 42, 84...

[calbear11 0]

8x and other hands like: 77, 82, 42, 84...

Yes.

[econ_tim 0]

but tim, this is the best hand I've seen you play, very nice

I'll put it up on my refrigerator.Kidding aside, I appreciate the occassional positive feedback.

[econ_tim 0]

Results:Villain had 2h 4h for counterfeited two pair. I think he played it like crap. I'm still not sure about checking or betting river. Villain definitely should have folded, but I could get a call from 8-4, 8-2, A-8, K-8, and maybe 7-7.Villain was pretty upset about this hand, but he should have been more upset about his play than mine.

[nrs02004 0]

I was just reading SSHE and I feel like he posts a very similar hand and says that he doesn't like a flop bet. He prefers a check on the flop, then when a safe turn card hits, a turn bet. I feel like to some extent you got lucky that the BB decided he needed to protect his hand and made everyone else cold call 2 to stay in. (not that it ended up mattering because overs didn't come).Also, are we thinking that the villian misplayed his hand just because he didn't 3 bet the turn (which is an obvious mistake)? (though it was a pretty damn loose call preflop...) I think he did an OK job of protecting his hand on the flop. Once he gets counterfitted he should fold, but the pot was getting pretty big, and it was just 1 BB to win 18... (maybe he still should have folded, but I can't fault him that much for paying off 1 more BB)

[econ_tim 0]

I was just reading SSHE and I feel like he posts a very similar hand and says that he doesn't like a flop bet. He prefers a check on the flop, then when a safe turn card hits, a turn bet.

I remember something similar. I think having the Button may change things. If I wait for the turn, I can't lead into the field. The best I can hope for is that it gets check to me and I bet or that it is check to the CO who bets so I can raise.

Also, are we thinking that the villian misplayed his hand just because he didn't 3 bet the turn (which is an obvious mistake)?

I think he messed up the flop. What does he need to protect his hand from? Maybe some unlikely straight draws. I think he can bet/call the flop.Given the action to the turn, he definitely should have 3-bet.And if he paid attention to my play (I had been at the table with him for 40 hands or so) he would notice that I was showing down strong hands. Maybe he couldn't be sure enough to fold, but my aggression meant something more than AK.

[screech 0]

8x and other hands like: 77, 82, 42, 84...

Villain had 2h 4h for counterfeited two pair

I must be greatly overestimating my opponent's standards :?

[wrto4556 0]

8x and other hands like: 77, 82, 42, 84...

Villain had 2h 4h for counterfeited two pair

I must be greatly overestimating my opponent's standards :?

one mistake a lot of people make is thinking that everyone plays just like them.not saying you do...

[nrs02004 0]

About defending bottom 2 pair, I'm a little bit torn. I'm not a good limit player and I'm trying to learn so let me spell out what I was thinking, and then I want you to pick it apart for me.First off there is a low straight draw and with a zillion people in the hand I wouldn't be suprised at all if someone had a gutshot draw to it, which they definitely have the odds to call for just one sb, for 2 they are getting 8:1 on their money with a 10:1 chance to hit (assuming that people between you and them haven't called).Also someone playing a pair can easily pickup 2 pair.Lastly (and this is the one that i'm really unsure of) the 2 low pair can easily be counterfeited. I'm not sure if defending against that is worth anything because clearly anyone playing against you for 2 bets has at least high pair, so if the board pairs, you're screwed regardless of whether or not you made the high pair+ pay one or 2 bets. However you are making him/her pay to draw out against you.I could see him betting early trying to get lots of calls in there, then have you or CO raise from late position and just turn it into a monster pot with everyone calling but after reading SSHE I think he would have opted for the villian to protect his hand.

[econ_tim 0]

Re: protecting bottom 2.I haven't thought this out fully, but we can think of villain's two pair as being a drawing hand. He's drawing to cards that don't pair the board or make a set for the other players (or straights). I need to count the outs, but I'm pretty sure there are enough to bet into this large field. I think his equity is high enough on the flop that he just wants to make the pot big. It's similar to playing a four-flush.Someone please let me know if I'm wrong.

[calbear11 0]

I am pretty sure that leading into this field and three betting the sure-to-come raise is the best play on the flop with bottom two. It traps people between the BB and flop raiser to either call 3 bets on the flop or fold after calling once. That way you both create a large pot AND limit the field. Top pair or an overpair are not folding, so a check raise makes the pot smaller but probably doesn't limit the field any more than leading does. Then bet the turn when the 6 falls and three bet it if you are raised. That's how to play this hand up to the turn if you are the BB in my opinion.

[princeof56k 0]

I usually dont do raise preflop with 99 here, and since no one brought it up, I'm assuming everyone else raises there. I was curious as to why? Am I losing a lot of value by not raising there?I usually dont raise 99 ,even on the button, when 3 people have already come in before me. I assume all of them will call anyways and the BB might be tempted to come in too with the size of the pot. There's not many flops that are great for 99 (although we did get one here). Even people with overcards are going to take a turn. So is raising 99 with 3 people coming in ahead of you a standard play?