20-40 no limit at commerce with phil laak

[steve7stud 0]

I've played quite a bit of poker with Phil Laak in the past, but this was my first session with him. I had observed his live play several times though. And knew that he was tricky and unpredictable. This hand took place 9-10 months ago, but was incredibly easy for me to remember. I just sat down with $2500. That is a short stack in this game.In the big blind I was dealt Queen 10 of spades.Mp (5k in front of him) raises to $80.Phil Laak on button ($8500) calls $80.I call.Flop: Queen heart, 5 spade, 2 spade.I check.Mp bets $220Phil raises $280 more.My turn to act now, what would you do.......pre-flop, flop, and after betting?

[shortypoke 0]

I'm not an expert, but I would just go all in at that point, especially with your short stack. An Ace high flush draw still wouldn't have the odds to call you... not to mention you're ahead of that hand.An over pocket pair could call, but you have a solid amount of outs... and depending on how those 2 opponents play, that might be a bold call.A better Q will probably fold as well. Automatic call from a set of Queens, but you can't always play as if you're up against the nuts.Taking a pot that size down right there benefits your stack greatly.I would call PF there too, btw. I might bet out on that flop, but I think I like your check better.Did you have any idea of how the other guy in the hand plays?

[pokerplayer24 0]

For 40 more would definitely be calling preflop.Post flop you have to think that the mp is just following his preflop raise. With laaks raise and the pot being nearly 1k before it your turn to act I think you'd be forced to push. Since calling leaves you with something like 1900 and including your call the pot is 1500. Figure no hand has you murdered in this spot and you have a good chance to take down the pot.

[allinbluff35 0]

In the big blind I was dealt Queen 10 of spades. Mp (5k in front of him) raises to $80. Phil Laak on button ($8500) calls $80. I call. I call that also.Flop: Queen heart, 5 spade, 2 spade. I check. Mp bets $220 Phil raises $280 more. My turn to act now, what would you do.......pre-flop, flop, and after betting?would it slow the villains down if you just call the flop bet/raise OOP in order to get it checked around on the turn?

[DCSports92GSR 0]

This is a tricky situation. After your check, any raise / call is going to set off red flags everywhere. Phil's raise looks like he's trying to isolate the original bettor, not take down the pot right there so I would figure him for a decent hand. I think you have enough outs working for you that you HAVE to push. This not only lets you avoid playing a good player on the turn when you don't have as great of odds ( if you don't get there ), but if phil folds, im sure you'd be happy to take down the pot right there and if he calls even with AQ, you have pleanty of outs.My $0.02

[DCSports92GSR 0]

would it slow the villains down if you just call the flop bet/raise OOP in order to get it checked around on the turn?Problem is, any good player is going to figure you out after you check on the turn and put you to a decision ( if you just call the flop ). And even IF it got checked around on the turn, and you blank off the rest of the way, do you value bet on the river? Check and call a bet? How big of a bet can you call on the end? What do you bet and what if you get raised? IMO theres too many opportunities to make a mistake against a better player.

[Smasharoo 0]

Move in on the flop.

[allinbluff35 0]

would it slow the villains down if you just call the flop bet/raise OOP in order to get it checked around on the turn?Problem is, any good player is going to figure you out after you check on the turn and put you to a decision ( if you just call the flop ). And even IF it got checked around on the turn, and you blank off the rest of the way, do you value bet on the river? Check and call a bet? How big of a bet can you call on the end? What do you bet and what if you get raised? IMO theres too many opportunities to make a mistake against a better player.

How are they going to put you to a decision on the turn? You just sat down.

[jjdylan 0]

i agree, his raise looks like he wants heads up action...you're not going to get many better flops for your hand, i'd push itedit: also, why would you sit down at a NL game of these stakes short stacked? That just seems like its asking for trouble to me

[Smasharoo 0]

Come on, just move in!!You have a huge overlay and even in a disaster where they both have hands that hut you, like 22 and AKs or something, you're still not in horrible shape.Most of the time, though, you're ahead here.

[steve7stud 0]

i agree, his raise looks like he wants heads up action...you're not going to get many better flops for your hand, i'd push itedit: also, why would you sit down at a NL game of these stakes short stacked? That just seems like its asking for trouble to me

I guess there were a couple of reasons that I bought in as a short stack. I normally used to play 10-20 no limit. I booked a win, and decided to use my profit to take a shot. The swings in a 20-40 no limit game can be HUGE. It's not unheard of for someone to lose 10, 20, or 30k in a game like that. Especially if there are a lot of deep stacks. The game plays a lot bigger then the limits would indicate.

[steve7stud 0]

In a day or two, I'll let you know what I did, and what the outcome was. For those that are curious.

[DCSports92GSR 0]

i agree, his raise looks like he wants heads up action...you're not going to get many better flops for your hand, i'd push itedit: also, why would you sit down at a NL game of these stakes short stacked? That just seems like its asking for trouble to me

I guess there were a couple of reasons that I bought in as a short stack. I normally used to play 10-20 no limit. I booked a win, and decided to use my profit to take a shot. The swings in a 20-40 no limit game can be HUGE. It's not unheard of for someone to lose 10, 20, or 30k in a game like that. Especially if there are a lot of deep stacks. The game plays a lot bigger then the limits would indicate.

I don't think buying in to a 10-20 NL game with $2500 is that bad. Even though other people at the table have more money than you, you still have enough for the limit. You got 150 big blinds. Would you say that bringing $500 to a 2-4 NL is too short?I guess its all relative to the other stacks, but you are still giving yourself enough to swing with the ropes with $2,500

[pokerplayer24 0]

He bought into a 20/40 nl game with 2500. I dont think its that bad even though you bought in as the short stack. 62.5 bb is enough to work with.

[DCSports92GSR 0]

He bought into a 20/40 nl game with 2500. I dont think its that bad even though you bought in as the short stack. 62.5 bb is enough to work with.

Oops :lol:Guess that shows how much I pay attention

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

I like pushing on the flop.

[Egarim 0]

Steve, it seems the main factor in what u should do depends upon bankroll questions. How much does that 2500 mean to you? Are you ready to gamble? Are you ready to put it all in on a coinflip???Given the fact that your shortstacked you're going to get called by any overpair, set, and top pair with a better kicker than yours. This means that vs an overpair or better tp, it's a coin flip. Vs a set you still have good % to outdraw. Combine that with the % of both players folding (which I don't think is a big % but definitely not miniscule) the right play is to push allin. By doing this you're hoping to take it down right now, but you're hoping if u get called you're at worst a coinflip. I can't see many situations where u would be better than that.However, if you don't want to put it all in on a coinflip... if that 2500 means a lot to u... then u have no other choice but to fold. You can't call here, as you're calling off over 1/5 ur stack. If you don't hit ur flush draw, ur certainly facing an allin. The implied odds here aren't great as it will be likely they'll fold if u push it when ur flush hits the turn. So, by pushing allin u gurantee urself 2 cards to hit ur flush. Also, there's the risk of the original raiser reraising with an overpair.So, you have only 2 options. All-in or fold. You can't lose what you don't put in the middle... but you can't win it either.

[akishore 0]

isn't this an automatic push?aseem

[PrtyPSux 0]

soo? what happens?? I push here btw.

[Suited_Up 2]

isn't this an automatic push?aseem

Seems like it to me. Just impossible to play if you did anything else.

[shinzilla 0]

The consensus is that all of your money should go in on the flop, which I agree with. Most likely, you're a favorite to win the hand over the other two and want to push your edge right there and then. However, I think calling's a great option. There's a $760 pot and you're facing a raise and then a reraise to $500 to stay in the pot. I think the critical aspect of this hand is the MP player. Phil really could be reraising with anything there, as both you and the MP (should) know. If you just call there, I think the MP is left with two viable options: raise or fold. And I think he's most likely to raise in that spot. Why? Well, for starters, he bet $220 into a $260 pot. That's a near pot sized bet into two players. I know it's a 20-40 NL game and play is advanced/tricky, but I don't see him making that bet with an underpair like jacks or tens into two players, especially when one is Phil Laak. I think if he had jacks or tens, we'd see a probe bet of around half the pot there instead. So I think it's reasonable to put his most likely holdings as AQ and KQ and then on a lesser scale AA and KK (I think he'd check with the intention of checkraising a pretty safe board). Phil? Phil could really have anything. The most dangerous hands he could have there are pocket 5's and 2's. But who knows what he really has? His potential hand range is huge.What would the MP think of your call? He knows that you faced a raise and a reraise and decided to call. I think if you just called, he'd put you on a queen (which would actually be correct). If you had a set, you would try to protect your hand by reraising to get the flush draw out. But with a raise and a reraise, you could be unsure about where you're at with your queen and just call. And at 20-40 NL, with action still left to be closed, he wouldn't put you a flush draw, seeing how you have to call $500 to stay in a $760 pot. Play is much too advanced to see a donkish call with a mere flush draw like that. So I think MP is most likely to think that he's ahead and reraise there. It doesn't even matter what Phil does. Whether he calls, raises, or folds, you're going to push all your money into the pot.And if, by chance, MP was betting with an underpair, he will call or fold. allinbluff makes a good point when he asks "Would it slow the villains down if you just call the flop bet/raise OOP in order to get it checked around on the turn?" I think MP and Phil would have to slow down when you've called a raise and a reraise on the flop. So if you call and the MP ends up just calling, then you can check the turn and get the free card. Or bet.In conclusion, calling with the intention of reraising is definitely a good option. I think the difference between choosing whether or not to call or reraise is really close. Reraising is definitely the easier/less aggravating option, but I think calling gives you a good chance to get more money in the pot.

[akishore 0]

shinzilla, that was a great post.aseem

[Smasharoo 0]

I'm not going to parse your whole post, but calling here sucks for a variety of reasons, most having to do with folding hands with redraws to your spade draw or hands that you're currently behind.

[steve7stud 0]

Has it been two days, lol. Is it time for the results?

[Smasharoo 0]

I predict.....Steve flat calls, turn comes a spade, PL moves in, Steve folds!I'm not willing to wager anything on this prediction.Come on, Steve, tell me you moved in and took it down there so I can die happy.