27 replies to this topic

[NYIsles]

by folding this hand?RJDIRK : Post Small Blind ($1)NYIsles : Post Big Blind ($3)Dealing...Dealt to NYIsles [ Qd ]Dealt to NYIsles [ Jh ]Joes123 : Fold detbro482: Fold casheum : Fold el-schwa: Fold catcat63: Call ($3)darrenc : Raise ($6)RJDIRK : Call ($5)NYIsles : Call ($3)catcat63: Call ($3)QJ warrants a call from the big blind…*** FLOP *** : [ 8d 2c Js ]RJDIRK : Check NYIsles : Bet ($3)catcat63: Call ($3)darrenc : Raise ($6)RJDIRK : Call ($6)NYIsles : Raise ($6)catcat63: Call ($6)darrenc : Raise ($6)RJDIRK : Call ($6)NYIsles : Call ($3)catcat63: Call ($3)OK, I have top pair with a decent kicker. I bet, and get raised. What could he have? Well, he raised pre-flop… he could have anything from AA to overcards. I play back at him to see where things stand, and get re-raised. Now there’s an indication of strength, possibly a set; perhaps AJ. I figure it’s worth one more call, considering there’s $66 in the pot right now. *** TURN *** : [ 8d 2c Js ] [ 9c ]RJDIRK : Check NYIsles : Check catcat63: Check darrenc : Bet ($6)RJDIRK : Raise ($12)NYIsles : Fold catcat63: Call ($12)darrenc : Call ($6)I’m not going to call two bets cold here (including a check-raise), especially with the prospect of another raise behind me. At most, I had 6 outs, and they’re not even close to clean. I’m guessing I’m up against at least a set, and possibly a made straight. I muck the hand. *** RIVER *** : [ 8d 2c Js 9c ] [ Th ]RJDIRK : Bet ($6)catcat63: Call ($6)darrenc : Call ($6)Yeah, of course…*** SUMMARY ***Pot: $123 | Rake: $3Board: [ 8d 2c Js 9c Th ]el-schwa didn't bet (folded) catcat63 lost $36 [ Ac 8c ] (a pair of eights)darrenc bet $36, collected $123, net +$87 (showed hand) [ 2h 2d ] (three of a kind, twos)RJDIRK lost $36 (showed hand) [ 9h Jc ] (two pair, jacks and nines)NYIsles lost $18 (folded) [ Qd Jh ] (a straight, eight to queen)axuuu didn't bet Joes123 didn't bet (folded) detbro482 didn't bet (folded) casheum didn't bet (folded) Would anyone have played this differently?Thanks…

[Jordan]

I dont play limit much...but I still think I would have folded the hand preflop.That probably is not the right play, but with QJ offsuit I know I wouldn't be comfortable with top pair of Jacks, or Queens, and thus would fold the hand. If I play QJ, I normally make sure I'm suited and looking to hit a flop with a big draw.However, as this is limit as opposed to no limit, I guess calling one more bet isn't a big deal...I just wouldn't be expecting much unless you were to flop two pair or a trips.This is an automatic fold for me in most no limit games, no matter what my position. If I'm suited, I may take a flop if the price is right, position, and money in the pot.To limit players: Is calling with QJo from the BB here the right play just because he only has to call one more bet? I'm really not sure...I just woudln't like "having" to call because I know how much this hand sucks.- Jordan

[Jordan]

Eek, forgot.With my limited limit knowledge (oops) I'd also probably fold on the flop. Mostly for the reasons mentioned above. You need a big draw, and then with all that action I'd def. figure I'm beat here.Hope I'm not too wrong in my logic...again, I play more no limit cash games than limit.Good luck.- Jordan

[MarionSauce]

Totally off topic, but Isles suck , especially with the Tucker VS Peca

[Smasharoo]

QJ warrants a call from the big blind… This is your mistake.This is a fold against anything but a SB steal.Even then it's pretty marginal.

[PreFlopQuiz]

You wre right ot get in preflop from the BB position. In this situation I would have put Darren on a high pair (AA, KK) and Dirk on a straight draw after seeing the betting patterns on the turn. So the question is what to do at this point with bet and raise infront of me. Well at this point I have implied pot odds around 8.5 to 1. And I have 9 outs (2 J, 3Q, 4T) so my odds are around 5 to 1. Pot odds outweigh and I call.In the end my assumptions may have been wrong but that is my honest answer. I am still learning, but that is how the situation plays out in my mind.Peace

[Smasharoo]

You wre right ot get in preflop from the BB positionNo, no, no, no.No.Fold it pre-flop.

[NYIsles]

Interesting... Hilger (Internet Texas Hold'Em) says it warrants an automatic call from the BB...

[NYIsles]

Totally off topic, but Isles suck , especially with the Tucker VS PecaYeah, well Lanny McDonald sucks too... BTW, can you ask the Leafs to make something significant happen this century, so I don't have to keep watching the replay of that 1978 goal as one of the great moments in Leaf history?Much appreciated... :wink:

[gobears]

You weren't last to act as the first caller could have re-raised and then you'd be in for another bet pre-flop.Smash: Would you call QJ unsuited if BB was last to act or is it still a fold situation? What if QJ was suited?By the way, I've enjoyed your commentary - very informative and entertaining.

[NYIsles]

Well at this point I have implied pot odds around 8.5 to 1. And I have 9 outs (2 J, 3Q, 4T) so my odds are around 5 to 1.At that point, I figure I'm likely up against a set or better. So I'm not counting the queens...

[Smasharoo]

Smash: Would you call QJ unsuited if BB was last to act or is it still a fold situation? What if QJ was suited?No, and yes.It's important to understand how weakly hands like JQ, QT, AT, KJ, etc really are against raise completely out of position. Let's set aside the fact that JQ is crushed my most legitimate raising hands before anything happens and say you flop a pair. Like in this hand, actually. You're completely out of position for the rest of the hand. If you bet, you're betting into the PF raise who may very well by way ahead of him. Wrose than a raise on this flop, which at least offers you some visability and a chance to get away from the hand, you'll often be betting into a smooth caller who has you dead to three outs. If the BB was the button, you could call the extra bet here. It's not.Interesting... Hilger (Internet Texas Hold'Em) says it warrants an automatic call from the BB...Never read it, but he's wrong. It warrants a call against a late position steal raise, which this isn't. The button has to know that CO is going to call here. If CO hadn't limped it would be an easy call because of the likelyhood of a blind steal.What's he actually say in the book, that's it's a call from a raise in any position allways?

[NYIsles]

What's he actually say in the book, that's it's a call from a raise in any position allways?Actually, he charts it. The best thing about Hilger's book is that he includes a plethora of charts pertaining to the optimal way to play starting hands. There's a complete separate chart for each of early position, middle position, late position, and the blinds.Often, he will state specific conditions for calling or raising (e.g., reraise or fold against one player, call against at least 3); in this case, he indicates a call with QJ off in the BB to a raise from any position.The thing about Hilger is that he's also a fairly conservative player (he's the guy who in this year's Main Event "only played Aces", according to another player at the table), so his strategies are not reckless.Having said this, I'm kind of surprised you would fold the BB here, considering you've said you would play QT off from the button for the same bet - with considerably less in the pot. Out of position might be more of a disadvantage in a game with better players (where the PF raise might mean more), but this pre-flop raiser was lucky to hit his set of ducks. He shouldn't have been raising in the first place, and that's always a possibility to consider in these low limit games. I don't mind mixing it up on the flop a bit, since I know I can get away from a hand like top pair if I feel I'm beaten later on...

[Smasharoo]

The thing about Hilger is that he's also a fairly conservative player (he's the guy who in this year's Main Event "only played Aces", according to another player at the table), so his strategies are not reckless.Well, he's dead wrong here.Having said this, I'm kind of surprised you would fold the BB here, considering you've said you would play QT off from the button for the same bet - with considerably less in the pot.I wouldn't cold call two bets with QT anywhere. I'd play it an unraised pot in late position. Calling a raise in the BB isn't the same as calling a single bet on the button. It's critical to understand that. It's worth playing a lot of hands, but it's not worth playing those which are frequently and badly dominated. Like JQ, KJ, AT etc. Calling this raise with 45s is much better than calling it with JQ because 45s is almost never going to make a viable second best hand when JQ will often. Out of position might be more of a disadvantage in a game with better players (where the PF raise might mean more), but this pre-flop raiser was lucky to hit his set of ducks. He shouldn't have been raising in the first place, and that's always a possibility to consider in these low limit games. I don't mind mixing it up on the flop a bit, since I know I can get away from a hand like top pair if I feel I'm beaten later on...If you have a hand history tracking program like Pokertracker, datamine what your BB/100 is when calling a bet in the BB with JQ, KJ, etc. It'll be negative. Position is important regardless of the quality of players. You'll be betting into people who will have better hands if they're great players or horrible. While some of the subtler points of position become less important, like pre-flop standards for limping or raising from middle or early becuase of the reduced risk of a limp-reraise, position after the flop still matters. You'll still win more money o nthe button in bad games than you will from the BB.JQ in the BB is an easy, easy, fold to a raise here. It really is. It's not just me. Sklansky says to fold it, Miller says to fold it in his guidelines for LOOSE table play, (and tight table play as well). In fact aside from your guy I've never heard of anyone advocating a call with it.JQ offsuit right?Fold it!

[NYIsles]

If you have a hand history tracking program like Pokertracker, datamine what your BB/100 is when calling a bet in the BB with JQ, KJ, etc. It'll be negative.Not sure how to mine for only hands that I've called a raise with from the BB... But since I've only got a little over 10K hands in Pokertracker now, I've only played QJ off from the BB 9 times, so it was easy for me to check manually. I do, in fact, have a positive return when calling a raise from the BB with QJ off, primarily due to the following...Josephine: Post Small Blind ($1)NYIsles : Post Big Blind ($2)Dealing...Dealt to NYIsles [ Js ]Dealt to NYIsles [ Qc ]Cancun : Fold Exec Player: Fold RLinSF : Fold jimbo2334: Fold swtke : Call ($2)DBD_SlamDunk: Raise ($4)rredd5 : Call ($4)harry6288: Fold Josephine: Fold NYIsles : Call ($2)swtke : Call ($2)*** FLOP *** : [ Jc Jd Qh ] Notwithstanding the above, your points are duly noted. Thanks for the input...

[Smasharoo]

Notwithstanding the above, your points are duly noted. Thanks for the input...I'm not sure if I should take that as "**** off you arrogant prick I'm still calling with it" or "whatever".I think I'll go with that second one.

[NYIsles]

No, I really meant it. Your points make a lot of sense, and I appreciate your sharing your views. I'm really learning a lot from you , and I think it's obvious that most of the other people here are, as well...

[KramitDaToad]

JQ in the BB is an easy, easy, fold to a raise here. It really is. It's not just me. Sklansky says to fold it, Miller says to fold it in his guidelines for LOOSE table play, (and tight table play as well). In fact aside from your guy I've never heard of anyone advocating a call with it. Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier also advocate a call here - they go as far as calling with JTo - especially if there are 4 or more players.I'm actually favouring a fold myself in the abscense of info on the other players, however I chucked a few hands in an enumerator for some guidelines.In a 4 way pot, I assumed the raises and calls were 'true to form' and put the limper on a hand like ATo, the cold caller on a smaller pocket pair that didn't warrant a reraise (eg sub-JJ) and the raiser on a few of the best hands like AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQQQ was obviously the worst result possible with QJ winning/splitting only 9.7% of all handsWith the raiser on AA, KK the QJ wins 12-13% of the time (interestingly does better against AA than KK)Against AQ the win was about 22% and against AK the win ratio is about 29%So whilst getting 7-1 for the call, the required odds wereAA: 6.5-1KK: 7-1QQ: 10-1AK: 2.5-1AQ: 3.4-1Now if you dilute the odds further to allow for the fact that the limper and the cold-caller may actually have a piece of your action eg KQs or JJ, you really are only getting good value if the raiser has AK or AQ.Therefore I'm thinking that unless your post flop play is extremely strong, QJo warrants a fold

[copernicus]

largely a matter of style and your ability to play post flop, and I would lean toward a call with this many limpers.Where I may be missing something is that you figure you have 6 outs going into the river, which looks reasonable to me. That means you need less than 7/1 to call. There is $87 or so in the pot, so even if you have to be in for 2 bets (not at all assured) you are getting better than 7/1. Easy call once youve made it to that point.

[NYIsles]

Where I may be missing something is that you figure you have 6 outs going into the river, which looks reasonable to me. That means you need less than 7/1 to call. There is $87 or so in the pot, so even if you have to be in for 2 bets (not at all assured) you are getting better than 7/1. Easy call once youve made it to that point.Not really. Even without a re-raise, I would have needed 6 clean outs for the call to be correct. But, with the flush draw and the possibility of someone holding a set (considering the strength represented earlier), I had to assume that some of those outs were counterfeited. That's why I layed the hand down.In retrospect, I only had three outs. Either jack would have given one player a boat; the 10 of clubs would have given another player the nut flush...