17 replies to this topic

[thecamelot]

Obviously I'm kicking myself after the first one, but was it a correct fold anyways?PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: thecamelot is UTG with [Ad], [Kd]. thecamelot raises, BB calls.Flop: (10.50 SB) [4h], [5s], [3s] (5 players)BB bets, thecamelot calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.Turn: (7.75 BB) [8h] (5 players)BB checks, thecamelot checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, BB calls, thecamelot folds.River: (11.75 BB) [2c] (4 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.Final Pot: 11.75 BBPokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: thecamelot is BB with [Td], [Th]. 3 folds, CO calls, thecamelot calls.Flop: (12.50 SB) [6d], [3d], [Jc] (3 players)thecamelot checks, MP1 bets, thecamelot folds, MP1 calls.Turn: (8.25 BB) [3c] (2 players)MP1 checks, CO bets, MP1 calls.River: (10.25 BB) [Qc] (2 players)MP1 bets $1 (All-In), CO calls.Final Pot: 12.25 BB

[JesseW316]

Raise the flop in the first hand.Second hand is fine.

[looshle]

JesseW316 said:

Raise the flop in the first hand.Second hand is fine.

I think raising the flop is horrible, he has to 2 overcards, and a sucker straight draw with 2 spades on the flop, and 3 people acting behind him. I don't think calling is bad but I think you can make a strong case for folding. Calling isn't horrible but raising is just flat out chip spewing.2nd hand I fold tens preflop when it's 3 cold to me.

[TruePoker]

folding the flop on hand one, maybe folding tens on second hand maybe capping and playing the hand.

[Smiff85]

Both hands standard IMO.

[CobaltBlue]

TruePoker said:

folding the flop on hand one

Wow...that's absolutely terrible. Liberally, we have 10 outs (3.7 to 1 to come on the turn). Conservatively, we have 7 outs (6 to 1 to come on the turn). The pot's laying 11 to 1. Fold if you hate money.As for the flop raise, I think it's defensible if we don't think we'll get 3-bet. We might be able to buy a free card. Liberally, we're 1.6 to 1 to hit by the river. Conservatively, we're 2.6 to 1.

[Randy Reed]

looshle said:

JesseW316 said:

Raise the flop in the first hand.Second hand is fine.

I think raising the flop is horrible, he has to 2 overcards, and a sucker straight draw with 2 spades on the flop, and 3 people acting behind him. I don't think calling is bad but I think you can make a strong case for folding. Calling isn't horrible but raising is just flat out chip spewing.2nd hand I fold tens preflop when it's 3 cold to me.

Ditto

[Sysvr4]

CobaltBlue said:

Conservatively, we have 7 outs (6 to 1 to come on the turn). The pot's laying 11 to 1. Fold if you hate money.

I came to the same conclusion on Hand 1. This is an easy call. It's one I hate making because usually it's a loser, but it's still correct.Hand 2 looks fine. You're in a tough spot calling 2 cold OOP with TT, but I think you have to do it.Jeff

[TruePoker]

what do you think your outs are?This is .5/1 where the fish call with ANY hand... you think a 2 is an out? someone could easily have a 6 and thats only if you make one of the 3 outs for the straight without completeing a flush.2 overcards, someone is betting out here implying at least a pair or the 6, they could have A6 K6, flush draw so you can say you have 4 clean outs for the overcards and even then you can only really think you have 3 outs.Im folding here everytime, what is the point of playing with only possibly 3 outs. And they could easily have 2 pair if you make your hand. I think your reverse implied odds here are far to high for you to play. Implied odds are very low and they still have redraws to a straight, a flush or 2 pair if you hit a pair. You have no pair and no draw here really.What do you think you are going to win this 5 player, early bet hand with? A pair of aces? A pair of Kings? Sucker Straight draw?This is an EASY fold.

[Rocketwadster]

The first hand, you are raising the flop to both narrow the field and value betting with your hand. I am very surprised that some people say that raising here is bad... :?

[TruePoker]

Thin the field at .5/1, you are crazy, add value to a rubbish hand....

[Rocketwadster]

TruePoker said:

Thin the field at .5/1, you are crazy, add value to a rubbish hand....

If by raising there, causing the three people yet to act to have to call two bets cold, youdon't thin the field, you are playing at the wrong table...

[CobaltBlue]

I neglected to mention something else. If we're calling and our three opponents are calling behind us, we're getting 14 to 1...which means we only need 3 outs. I think we can certainly scrape together 3 outs.If you're absolutely sure there's going to be heavy action on the flop, you could get away from this. However, there's no indication that there's going to be heavy action.

[TruePoker]

yes, you might have 3 outs, but you wont know what they are, what if a 2 comes down, early bets, you raise and get re-raised. You have just put 2 big bets into a pot of 8 big bets..... Your reverse implied odds here mean that you actually put 5 in for that call of one.... so you are getting roughly 3:1 on your call :S................................................................................................Which means that you need at least 30 % chance to win, 15 outs on the flop.This is just an example, say if you call down again, thats another big bet on the river. You might be ahead, but they still have redraws for a better hand, and if no one has a 6 they still have 4 outs for the split pot at least, not counting flush draws or full house draws...You also have to remember that you are in the worst position, you are immediately after the bettor so you don't even have the chance to see what the other players are doing. It turns out that the BB doesn't bet the turn in this example but in my opinion it's like playing UTG, you aren't going in here without a hand that is worth re-raising or capping if a later player raises and the BB 3-bets.

[Rocketwadster]

I didn't comment on the second hand yet...Fold pre-flop. 8)

[CobaltBlue]

TruePoker said:

You also have to remember that you are in the worst position, you are immediately after the bettor so you don't even have the chance to see what the other players are doing.

And if the BB checks? And if you check/bet and UTG+1 bets/raises?

[KDawgCometh]

looshle said:

JesseW316 said:

Raise the flop in the first hand.Second hand is fine.

I think raising the flop is horrible, he has to 2 overcards, and a sucker straight draw with 2 spades on the flop, and 3 people acting behind him. I don't think calling is bad but I think you can make a strong case for folding. Calling isn't horrible but raising is just flat out chip spewing.2nd hand I fold tens preflop when it's 3 cold to me.

we're in the BB in the TT hand, so we only have to call two there, and I think the implied odds in this can make up for any disadvantageand ditto on the first hand

[TruePoker]

CobaltBlue said:

TruePoker said:

You also have to remember that you are in the worst position, you are immediately after the bettor so you don't even have the chance to see what the other players are doing.

And if the BB checks? And if you check/bet and UTG+1 bets/raises?

It's a totally different situation there, if you put yourself in the dealer position, you can raise for the free card on the turn and then check / call / bet appropriately.