21 replies to this topic

[akishore]

lets say you have A 8 in MP.one player limps, you limp, another limps behind you, SB completes, BB raises, everyone calls.5 players to the flop for 10 SB, board comes 10 9 2 . SB checks, BB bets, EP calls, you raise, LP and SB fold, BB and EP call.3 players and a 8 BB pot, turn comes 4 . BB bets, EP folds.how many of you raise here, and how many of you just call?how does it change if villian is loose or tight? if he's aggressive or passive? if he's predictable or tricky?aseem

[DCSports92GSR]

how does it change if villian is loose or tight? if he's aggressive or passive? if he's predictable or tricky?With no reads, im just calling. IMO, it takes alot of guts to lead in to a flop-raiser un-improved on the turn, and I don't want to have to call a 3-bet when I'm drawing heads up.

[JesseW316]

I am almost never raising this turn. In my opinion, it isn't really worth risking the 3-bet and the missed river. I call here 99 percent of the time.

[DanielNegreanu]

This is a perfect example of a lesson I learned seven years ago when playing with Jennifer Harman. I'd made some goofy raise on the turn with a flush draw and got there on the river. She look puzzled, and later explained to me, "Why would you raise the turn in a spot where you know you are going to get called?" No kiddin'! The raise on the turn in the situation you described isn't a good play. What are you REALLY trying to accomplish here? It's like the monster parlay:1. Hope he doesn't have a pair.2. Hope he will fold a pair???3. Hope that he turned a flush draw AND missed the turn.4.Hope he has AK and will fold on the river. That's like taking a 10 team parlay on a Sunday afternoon! All raising the turn does is put more money in as an underdog and leave you with a difficult decision on the river as to whether or not to continue with the bluff. This play is what I call the "rookie play." When I was a rookie I thought it was the nuts. Then I grew up and realized it was a poor excuse for me just wanting to gamboool! Calling is the play to make here against virtually any opponent.

[akishore]

wow, i'm honored that daniel replied. more importantly, he stole the words right out of my mouth! thanks, daniel.yeah, you said what i wanted to say.i used to raise this turn a lot, thinking:"i can make him fold""my hand has showdown value""i get in an extra bet when i hit my flush on the river"but in all honesty, it's just a bad play.you don't have as much fold equity as you think you do, and if your opponent calls, your hand really DOESN'T have any showdown value (this leaves you in a tight spot, deciding whether you want to take one more stab at the pot).finally, you leave yourself in a vulnerable spot if you get three-bet, and the fact of the matter is that you're putting more money in as an underdog (negative equity edge).i found myself in this situation today, and realized that i used to raise this a lot. but, thankfully, i didn't this time because i realized how bad it is.and who are you calling a rookie? aseem

[econ_tim]

DanielNegreanu said:

That's like taking a 10 team parlay on a Sunday afternoon!

I have no idea what this means, but it can't be good.

[allinbluff35]

econ_tim said:

DanielNegreanu said:

That's like taking a 10 team parlay on a Sunday afternoon!

I have no idea what this means, but it can't be good.

sports betting

[Rocketwadster]

Haven't read the responses, so hopefully I am not far off.You asked how we would play this hand against many different types of opponents, but I am not sure that matters as much here. With our hand, we are more times than not an underdog here to the BB, so why build the pot when we are an underdog? Call the turn bet to see what we get on the river, and if it is our flush card play accordingly. If it is an ace, great, but we may still be losing, so play accordingly. If we hit the 8, well, you know...Bottom line is, by raising we run the risk of getting 3-bet as an underdog, so why do it? What hands are going to fold to our raise here???

[BeanGW]

I absolutely agree with the majority on this play. It is one area that I am still working on improving myself, because I think I've just gotten uberaggressive lately, and I know there are sometimes when calling is best. In a heads-up scenario it seems like the best play.But, obviously the number of villains still left in the hand definitely changes things up. If there are 4 villains or more on the turn I'm raising, just about every time. The flush draw alone wouldn't give me the equity to make that play, but the fact that I might clean up some Ace outs which would give me a better chance to win the big pot with a raise, makes that play seem better.

[Kestral123]

I actually thinking raising on the flop is a mistake here as well. You have two active players behind you. Since you have to be fairly sure you need to improve to win, and that your raise is going to get called, I think you're better off just calling. That way, you might keep one or two of the other active players in the pot, which makes your drawing odds better. Plus, you don't risk getting three bet.Of course, if you are heads up, I would agree with the raise to try for the free card.Just my $0.02 worth.

[WestcoastCanuck]

I used to do this a lot, and still find myself doing it sometimes. I've maybe got someone to fold if I missed my flush 4 times out of 1000. I am positive those 4 times ace high was the best hand.The post and responses clarified just how stupid of a move this is.

[greatwhite]

There is absolutely no reason to raise there. It can only be -EV. :-)

[ChrisOfSpades]

i would raiseno, not really. hell no. i just wanted to say it since noone else did.

[speedz99]

Man, if this was neverwin in the hand he would have raised because he's a donk! DN is gonna kick his ass in their heads up match!!!Oh, wait, this is the Strategy forum, not General. And I'm not 15.Sorry, forget this ever happened.

[Rocketwadster]

I think this post needs more cowbell...

[jjdylan]

Kestral123 said:

I actually thinking raising on the flop is a mistake here as well. You have two active players behind you. Since you have to be fairly sure you need to improve to win, and that your raise is going to get called, I think you're better off just calling. That way, you might keep one or two of the other active players in the pot, which makes your drawing odds better. Plus, you don't risk getting three bet.Of course, if you are heads up, I would agree with the raise to try for the free card.Just my $0.02 worth.

Raising the flop is good here...1. You make your flush often enough by the river that this raise can be to pump the pot up for that extra value2. I really dont want to keep those 2 extra players in the pot too long. Since the BB raised preflop he most likely has a big pair or even AK...by raising the flop i can get hands like A10 or A9 or AJ out most of the time, there by cleaning up a few more outs for me if an ace hits and i miss my flush. (providing the BB doesnt have one). 3. Its possible that your raise on the flop will get the action checked to you on the turn (didnt happen in this example, but in general..) where you can take a free card to try and hit your flush cheaply on the river or fold to a river bet from the BB if you miss.

[wrto4556]

Rocketwadster said:

I think this post needs more cowbell...

thats funny

[carmdog]

With the nut flush draw (and few redraws) and two behind you, I think you should smooth call the flop.

[Mattnxtc]

completely jackin the thread but i have a variation i want to ask about....same hand and situation...but say on the turn say a 7 of clubs comes which now gives you an additional 6 outs? now what is the correct play? To continue to call? what if the guy is less aggressive? how does that change the situation?

[akishore]

Mattnxtc said:

completely jackin the thread but i have a variation i want to ask about....same hand and situation...but say on the turn say a 7 of clubs comes which now gives you an additional 6 outs? now what is the correct play? To continue to call? what if the guy is less aggressive? how does that change the situation?

against an aggressive guy, the play leans WAY more toward calling, even with a 15-outter like that.getting three-bet would suck, and you're just as likely to get in the extra raise when you hit on the river.if the guy is specifically tight/passive, raising becomes better, but still sucks.the reason is that this raise is done for fold equity, when you have a strong draw AND you have showdown value. against a tight/passive guy who is betting here, your ace high almost never has showdown value.aseem