40 replies to this topic

[koolromeo]

we had a home tournament tonight. nothing big. winner take all $150 pot. i'm in the cutoff with kk and raise it 4x big blind. big blind raises me triple that. i have him covered. i'm in 2nd place out of 4 and feel confident i'm going to win. i know he'll be all in on the flop. i only invested 10% of my chips so far. so i folded. never did that before. i don't know what he had, but i did go onto to win the tournament. i figure he had a-a,q-q- or a-k. he's a little loose but usually not a reraiser preflop. i think i made a good decision. what would u have done? i would have been crippled if i lost. have u ever folded kk preflop? let me know.

[looshle]

Seriously? There may be a time to fold KK preflop but this definately isnt it. There's a 1/22 chance someone is going to have AA when you have KK. So there was a 21/22 chance that you were ahead. He probably had QQ or JJ and you had him dominated. Never fold KK preflop heads up. Ever.

[TheIceman05]

If you're that much better than your adverseries, then it's a great decision, especially if you're in such good shape chip-wise. I hate to sound like Phil Hellmuth here, but you're better than that. Get the money in when you're positive you've got the best hand, right? And I got a chance to fold KK before the flop a few days ago, actually. I was UTG in a 25 max NL game, and I made a standard sized raise. A guy I had no experience with moved all in for like 5 bucks (I think I opened for 1.25). Someone called, and a tightass moved in from the small blind. I was pretty sure he had aces. I thought about it for a while, but almost had me covered, so I saved my 35 bucks and let the hand go. It was a pretty easy fold, considering this guy was only playing absolutely premium hands, and wasn't moving against that many players unless he had AA or KKHe had AMERICAN AIRLINES, and I would've spiked my king on the turn.CheersIce

[MSR]

I was playing in a tournament at the local pool hall, and got dealt KK on the second hand of the night (on the button no less). A couple people limp in, and I raise to 3 or 4 times the big blind. The big blind, who lost about 2/3 of his stack on the first hand, moves in. One of the limpers then moves in over the top. He and I had the same amount of chips, so I would have to be all in to call. I decided I didn't want to risk my whole tourney on the second hand even if I was a favorite in the hand. (Bad decision, I know). I decided he probably had a hand like AK, and he would manage to get an A and beat me. I folded. Turns out the big blind had A-x, and the reraiser had a low pair, I think it was sevens. The Ace did flop just like I feared, but I would have won a rather large sidepot if I had stayed in. I did go on to a third place finish, so I didn't have to second guess myself too much.

[TheIceman05]

looshle said:

Seriously? There may be a time to fold KK preflop but this definately isnt it.  There's a 1/22 chance someone is going to have AA when you have KK. So there was a 21/22 chance that you were ahead. He probably had QQ or JJ and you had him dominated.  Never fold KK preflop heads up. Ever.

You're a fool. Don't put your money in the pot in a situation if you think a better situation will come up. That's not to say you weren't probably ahead, but if you honestly believe you're significantly (outside the realm of chance) better than these players and you'd almost knocked out if you lose this pot, there's no real reason not to throw it away. Wait for a better spot. I'm not that good, but if you're good enough to find a better one, wait for it.

[Smasharoo]

There probably are times to lay down KK pre-flop heads up, but I won't be doing it any time soon. What's important to realize is that laying it down to JJ or QQ is a much bigger mistake than calling against AA.

[TheIceman05]

Smasharoo said:

There probably are times to lay down KK pre-flop heads up, but I won't be doing it any time soon.  What's important to realize is that laying it down to JJ or QQ is a much bigger mistake than calling against AA.

I disagree.Phil Hellmuth is an annoying prick, but he's right about a few things, and this is one of them.... If I've got this guy outchipped by a small margin, and someone tells me, "TheIceman05, 7/10 times, this guy is going to have JJ. The other 3 times he'll have AA. What will you do with KK?"Assuming I don't have any significant money in the pot, and ASSUMING I'M SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than the people I'm playing with, I'll lay it down. Look, I'm going to win this tournament. But there's no need to take a chance. It's infinitely better to be alive and make a bad laydown than it is to be dead and make a good call. The important thing is, there are situations where even some small amount of volatility is undesirable. If I'm in a tournament- an actual tournament with real people, not the cartoon characters I assume you're playing with- there is really no questions unless you have some specific foreknowledge leading you to believe a fold's the only option. But if these guys are dogs, and you're gonna get them into a better spot, then see flops and bust somebody when you KNOW you're ahead. In this situation, it's a much bigger mistake to get knocked out by AA than knock out JJ or QQICEmphatically

[looshle]

You're a fool. Don't put your money in the pot in a situation if you think a better situation will come up. That's not to say you weren't probably ahead, but if you honestly believe you're significantly (outside the realm of chance) better than these players and you'd almost knocked out if you lose this pot, there's no real reason not to throw it away. Wait for a better spotI'm a fool for not folding KK heads up? That makes a lot of sense. Of course, if I have KK at a 10 person table and its raised 4 times ahead of me, I would be able to let them go but heads up is different. Anyone can make the same play at you with QQ or JJ, and the times you call against these hands will make up for the times you are up against Aces.

[koolromeo]

Smasharoo said:

There probably are times to lay down KK pre-flop heads up, but I won't be doing it any time soon.  What's important to realize is that laying it down to JJ or QQ is a much bigger mistake than calling against AA.

what does this post mean smash? how am i to know what he had? i felt i had him beaten, but i only committed 10% or less of my stack so far. if i lose, i'm almost dead. i think i made a good choice because i was definately the favorite amongst the 4 people left. i even laid down a flush to a known bluffer when he went all in when the flush card hit. my flush was 3 high and i had squat invested. i did win the tournament. now if this was a cash game, i'm all in preflop with the kk. if i lose i buy back in.

[looshle]

i felt i had him beaten, but i only committed 10% or less of my stack so far.If you felt you had him, you were a 4:1 favorite. Who cares about how much of your stack is invested? If you think you are a 4:1 favorite, why would you ever fold??

[noservice]

In my home games KK is priceless pre-flop. It all depends on the game I guess. If you feel your beaten then throw it away and wait for a more oppurtune time... However, I think in that situation I would've pushed him all in pre-flop after the re-raise... Had you won that hand you'd be in great shape for the rest of the tourney.

[koolromeo]

[quote name='"looshle"][b]i felt i had him beaten' date=' but i only committed 10% or less of my stack so far.[/b']If you felt you had him, you were a 4:1 favorite. Who cares about how much of your stack is invested? If you think you are a 4:1 favorite, why would you ever fold??of course i had a strong feeling that i was best. there was only one hand that could beat me, but if you read all my posts you'll see why i folded. iwas very confident i would win the tournamnet, so why gamble with nothing invested? i've called all ins plenty of times preflop with kk even when i felt i was beaten. this was the first time i ever laid down kk pre flop and it was very easy to do. it also ensured i held my chip position amongst the weak field. i did win. maybe i woulda doubled up, but i felt i didn't need to at that time. the blinds were still very low and i was in 2nd place. keep the responses coming. i knew this topic would generate a good amount of responses.

[koolromeo]

noservice said:

In my home games KK is priceless pre-flop.  It all depends on the game I guess. If you feel your beaten then throw it away and wait for a more oppurtune time...  However, I think in that situation I would've pushed him all in pre-flop after the re-raise...  Had you won that hand you'd be in great shape for the rest of the tourney.

i was already in great shape for the rest of the game

[looshle]

so why gamble with nothing invested?Well, you admit to saying you were confident you had the best hand so folding seems to be the worst option you possibly have. Anyone who is scared to put their $ in as a 4:1 favorite should probably not be sitting at the table. It's called gambling for a reason and when you have your opponent crushed there's no reason to be scared of putting him in. Maybe you were better than everyone else and I can see you making this argument if you had AK, AKs, or even QQ, but not with kings.

[shamhawks]

i was already in great shape for the rest of the game[/quote]I think it was a good decision. I caught an interview with a pro player about this same situation in a tourney, but with aces, and he folded, "as he put it" sure he was a big favorite to win but with the tourney on the line, he didn't want to chance it in that situation, and ended up winning, when he was more in control of taking his oppinent chips. And the point is that you did win the tourney and who knows what might have been with your call.

[JistTheFist]

[quote="looshle"]so why gamble with nothing invested?great point... I've laid down KK about three times that I can remember preflop. 2 online and once in a local tourney... I can't disagree with your play on this at all. if you were in good shape to win that tourney there is absolutely no reason to take a chance at having someone outdrawing you and going out on a sour note... If he had QQ or JJ all he needs is to hit one of them and then all of a sudden he is a 4:1 favorite for the hand. If you fold there you are in good, solid shape to still outplay the rest and win the tourney... if you call and win you're in great shape... but if you call and lose, you're screwed... so just put it down and wait til you know you've got it... I think you played the hand well... here's a story of when I had to put them down...Local tourney, final 9 get paid... and there are ten left. I get K,K UTG with a stack of about 14,000 with blinds at $250-$500 with $25 antes... I raise a little more than the standard making it $2200 to go. the player immediately on my left calls in a heartbeat. now the button raises to about 3600... the small blind calls and then the big blind (An ultra-tight player who had been folding his blinds and everything the whole tourney) moves all in for 18,975... my thoughts right now are1)"If I call and win this hand... I will be in chip lead and have a great shot at winning this whole thing"2)"If I call and lose this hand (by either running into aces or being outdrawn) I don't even finish in the money.then I started to think about the players still to react behind me. the guy on my left called so quick it freaked me out. the guy on the button wasn't very good and I figured he may have even had an underpair and was trying to bet it then cuz he knew he wouldn't if he didn't hit his set. and the small blind had "fold" written all over his face now. then I looked at the All-in guy again... I thought he may have even been using his tight reputations to try and buy this monster pot right there.... but I don't think he would try anything that risky in a hand with this many players left. I finally decided to grind it out and lay down the hand to see where I could end up in the money... The player on my left reraises for all of his chips, the button calls, and the small blind folds....Left player: ACE,ACEButton: SIX,SIXBig Blind: Q,Qthe flop came x-Q-K!!!!! but the river was the last Q and he won the hand with quads. Overall I was glad I made the fold because I would have been eliminated and not even taken any money. I folded both my blinds and picked up aces on the button... I took such a pot off of that hand that I ended up winning the tourney.

[jomatty]

ive folde KK once preflop and would have spiked a k against the AA that i correctlty folded against. last night i made a really nice laydown with QQ and two tables left in the 10:15 stars rebuy and was correct, i was against AA and another guy with JT. again i would have flopped a Q and been the chip leader and instead i barely made the final table.i was still happy i had the discipline to go with my read.the situation you describe though is different. i would have a hard time not playing KK there. unless you think he has AA very often you just got play in my opinion.matty

[AceOfSpaiDs]

looshle said:

Seriously? There may be a time to fold KK preflop but this definately isnt it.  There's a 1/22 chance someone is going to have AA when you have KK. So there was a 21/22 chance that you were ahead. He probably had QQ or JJ and you had him dominated.  Never fold KK preflop heads up. Ever.

he's right...the chances are not likely that he was holding A-A, which means you have the 2nd best available hand...and the best hand overall, I would've called and seen the flop to see what hits the board...watch his betting actions...does he check, bet low/high...if not much hits the board or you hit a 3rd K, you're more than likely a shoe-in to win the hand...he might've been holding A-K, A-Q, in both cases, I believe you have the better hand, unless he spikes that lucky A

[superchuck]

interesting this topic came up because i just got home from a little house game and when we drew for dealer button my friend pulled the ace o` spades, and declared he should go all-in on the first hand because he felt extremely lucky. so he deals it out and i pull AA and goad him that he would never actually do it and i push all-in and he calls me instantly. he turned over KK and i doubled through first hand of the tourney. funny little story i guess.

[Smasharoo]

what does this post mean smash? how am i to know what he had? i felt i had him beaten, but i only committed 10% or less of my stack so far. if i lose, i'm almost dead. i think i made a good choice because i was definately the favorite amongst the 4 people left. i even laid down a flush to a known bluffer when he went all in when the flush card hit. my flush was 3 high and i had squat invested. i did win the tournament. now if this was a cash game, i'm all in preflop with the kk. if i lose i buy back in.I think you made a bad choice that worked out well.Don't play short term results.Folding KK is a vanity play. If it makes you feel like a better player and that confidence helps you win, do it.Otherwise it's terrible.