4 replies to this topic

[akishore]

i'm constantly seeing this:heads-up on the flop:hero bets with a strong hand, villian raises, hero calls.turn:hero checks, villian bets, hero raises, ...in almost all the examples i'm seeing of this, your hand isn't strong enough to just call the flop and go for a turn checkraise.examples of hands that aren't strong enough to do this:- overpair.- PAIR + FREAKING FLUSH DRAW.- bottom two pair.- open-ended straight flush draw.- a flopped straight even! (six outs counterfeit you and kill your action on the turn.)- a flopped non-nut flush! (you leave a naked overcard 7 outs to beat you.)examples of hands that ARE strong enough to do this:- an overpair SOMETIMES when you're wa/wb but think you're wa much more often.- set on a ragged board.- top two pair on a ragged board.- flopped full house sometimes, though you'll probably get more action anyway just by reraising the flop...- flopped nut flush sometimes, though again, you're more likely to get action reraising now, plus 7 outs might kill your action on the turn.the point is, you're usually a good favorite on the flop, but your equity can often change drastically on the turn. why in the world would you not reraise the flop and put more bets in as a favorite?here's an example:i have Ac 7c, flop is 9c 7s 4c. i bet, villian raises, THIS IS A CRYSTAL CLEAR THREE-BET. you have a monster, and you just need to push your equity edge AS A FAVORITE on the flop (you will very often be an underdog on the turn when you miss!).are you really going to checkraise when the turn bricks an offsuit jack? or if the turn brings another 9, and then you get three-bet on the turn? or if the turn brings an offsuit 8 and your opponent hit his open-ended or gutshot? etc.if you're planning a checkraise, you have to admit that there are lots of turn cards that AREN'T attractive to you, and if you checkraise those, you'll often get bit in the ass by a three-bet on the expensive street when you're now an underdog (assuming you were a favorite before). if you don't go for a checkraise, then you've lost value on the entire hand.this adds up to reverse implied odds (you either get more action on the turn than you want when you're beaten, or you don't get enough action through the entire hand by NOT going for the checkraises on bad turn cards.)here's another example:i have Q-Q, flop is 10-7-2. i bet, villian raises, this is again a crystal clear three-bet! don't get fancy and go for a turn checkraise!are you really going to checkraise a K or an A turn? or a 10 or 7 or 2? same reverse implied odds as last hand.here's another example:i have J-10, flop is K-Q-9. i bet, villian raises, you MUST three-bet this, ESPECIALLY if the flop has two hearts or something.if you then check the turn when it falls a J or 10 (six outs), your opponent might easily check behind, or he might have now caught up to you and tied or even beaten you. what if your opponent has two pair and would have given you plenty of action on the flop, but now the turn fills him up (pairs the board)... are you really going for a checkraise on the turn when the board pairs? are you folding (drawing dead) if he three-bets?here's another example:i have 7h 6h, flop is 9h 8h 2d. same reasoning as hands above, where you're a heavy favorite on the flop, but you're way often an underdog on the turn.how about 7h 6h on a flop of 9h 4h 2h? are you really going to give all those overcard hearts a free draw to hit a higher flush? how about if your opponent has TPTK no flush draw, and would give you plenty of action on the flop thinking you were semi-bluffing? if the turn brings another heart, not only are YOU waaay more liable to get bluffed off the best hand, but you also kill your action against worse hands (reverse implied odds).how about Ah 4h on a flop of Jh 4h 3h? any Kh or Qh, especially with a pair, will probably get into a raising war with you on the flop, and you miss all that value by not reraising the flop. if the turn bricks out, will that same flush draw now give you as much action as it would have on the flop?i hope you get my point.it's really rare that your hand is SO strong taht you can get fancy like that. not only that, you have to be sure of a lot of other things, like that your opponent WILL bet the turn if you just call his flop raise (what if he's raising for a cheap showdown or a free card?)... this is vital!!!all in all, i think a lot of you should be getting out of this habit. the usual reward in this case is just an extra 0.5 BB from our opponent, but the risks of a) giving a free card on the turn, B) losing action that we would've gotten on the flop, c) putting in more money as an underdog than as a favorite, d) getting more action than we want on bad turns, and probably more risks than i can think of right now, just make this play unattractive for most common heads-up situations.so, stop. i think it's a bad habit and a leak.aseemp.s. i assumed you were out of position this whole time. this is also applicable when you're in position, e.g. when you bet, villian raises, and you call intending to raise a turn bet, or when villian bets, you raise, villian three-bets, and you call intending to raise a turn bet.p.s.s. obviously this is the best line in some cases, like when you have a strong but vulnerable hand on the flop against an aggressive opponent, but unlike these cases, you're not always committed to go to showdown. then, you can slowplay the flop a little intending to fold a bad turn and checkraise a good turn. most of the hands i covered, though, are ones which you intend to take to at least the river.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

A good read. Nice post.I'll stop doing that all the time out of position with an overpair.

[wrto4556]

bet/call check/raise isnt a bad line...its actually a good one against players you know will bet the turn.wait...I actually think that its straight out of HEPFAP.

[Rocketwadster]

Excellent post. I have indicated many times that I do not like the check-raise, and you have clearly outlined some good examples of why NOT to use it. 8)

[MBrady]

I don't think what you are saying is entirely applicable accross all levels aseem. For 2-4, 3-6, even 5-10 a decent player will fold to a reraise on the flop, or at least just fold to the lead out bet on the turn. This doesn't just cost you .5 bb, it costs you at least 1, often more. That's not to say you need to use it every time, but you HAVE to have this kind of move in your arsenal besides when you have the stone cold nuts. Against a decent player you need to extract that extra bet, because that same decent player will fold to the flop reraise. [/code]