11 replies to this topic

[akishore]

$2/4 limit, six-handedpreflop: CO with A-K suitedUTG calls, MP raises, foldey, foldey, BB calls, UTG folds, MP calls.flop: 6-3-6 (10 SB, 3 players)two checks, i bet, two callsturn: 7 (6 BB, 3 players)BB bets, BB calls.river: A (8 BB, 2 players)BB bets, i CALL.turn raise was for free showdown the times i missed. planned on folding to a three-bet. bad or good raise?hit my card, he bet again. good call, or should i be raising here?aseem

[WonderfulSplash]

Without reads i might fold this the the Stop and Go by the BB. If hes a loose player who might be bluffing i don't mind a raise here. But if we raise the turn thinking we might have the best hand, i would have to raise this river for value.

[Mattnxtc]

would have helped a great deal if you had a read on the mpa 6 in the hand is a little loose to be raising from mp but if he had say a a6 suited i could see the raise being made. i defiantly have problems with the turn raise as you have no read on the guy so for all you know he could have aces on you...the fact that he just called ur raise makes me think middle pair or ax. Im raising the river..its what you stayed in the hand for

[akishore]

Mattnxtc said:

would have helped a great deal if you had a read on the mp

except he folded on fourth street.aseem

[BeanGW]

Aseem: Just wondering how pot size came into play in your decisions for this hand.

[princeof56k]

BB's play here is damn confusing. He check/called the flop, but led the turn. Then just called your raise, but led the river. I dont like the raise on the turn if you plan on folding to a 3-bet. Why not just call and then showdown for the same price? His lead at the turn tells us he hit something (I dont think hes on total bluff). The best case is that he paired his seven. If he is a player likely to fold a pair of sevens here to a raise, then raise, but if hes likely to call down with any pair, then I would just call the turn. If he has trip sixes or hit a straight (which is what this looks like), then hes not folding.So my opinion is that it comes down to reads. If hes likely to fold the better hand to a raise, then you raising there is fine. But if this guy aint folding and its likely he hit something, I would not raise there. You could be drawing dead after the turn.

[Kendren]

Judging from the tone of his OP, "pot size" wasn't his problem. :wink:

[greatwhite]

I would of just called the turn and call the river. What kind of hands would the BB just called with and raised the turn? There are only a few hands I could think of they may have where you will be beat. They are 54s, 33, 66, A6s, A7s, and AA. As you can see some of those hands should have been folded preflop. Otherwise they have 2 high cards just like you. They would of most likely would of raised the flop with any pocket pair besides 33, 66, and AA. Calling down is probablly the best move in my opinion. (unless this player always has the goods) This will cost you 2 more big bets, but you will be getting 8BB to 2BB or 4-1 on your money. The problem with raising the river is that they will 3-bet any hand that beats you. Then you have to call another bet, hoping they have a hand like AQ or AJ.

[akishore]

ok, let me explain the turn raise.i (perhaps wrongly) assumed that villian was passive as the rest of the table generally was.the turn was a 7, the board read 6-3-6-7.our opponent bets. if i CALL, and the river comes an A or K, he might check/call my bet instead of leading out again. so, i earn 2 BB the times that i hit the river.our opponent bets. if i RAISE, he calls, and the river comes an A or K, he will probably check/call a bet if he intends to go to showdown. so now, i earn 3 BB the times that i hit the river.our opponent bets. if i RAISE and get him to fold ANY hand (both better and worse), i win. even if this doesn't happen often, it's awesome when it does (especially a better hand).so these two thoughts were my primary concern:1. an ace or king on the river might slow my opponent down (kill the action).2. even if i get him to fold rarely, it's awesome (even 10-9 has odds to call my raise and draw to a 10 or 9 on the river, but if he thinks he's drawing dead since i might A-A, for example, then he makes a mistake according to the fundamental theorem, right? so i don't mind folding worse hands here either. same with A-Q, that might tie with me on an ace river, etc.).what i was REALLY shaky about, though, was what to do on a three-bet. i TOLD myself i would fold to a three-bet since i was probably drawing dead against 6-x, and i have the discipline to fold.so, while i'm not entirely sure, i think my turn raise was good against a passive opponent. i'm not sure how much it sucks against an aggressive one (probably just calling the turn and calling EVERY river is the best line against an aggressive opponent).what i'm really unsure about is my river play. it doesn't matter what he had specifically this hand, but i'm wondering if in the long run, a raise there is correct or if a call is.aseem

[KDawgCometh]

bad turn raise, accomplishes nothing. I don't see how a free showdown is good here, and you get gaybet on the river when you hit, if you are raising to try to hit your hand, and then hit it, why aren't you raising the river. Don't give me one of your ten thousand word responses causue I'm not gonna read it. If you have some illogical reason for why you played this hand this way, then try to do it in a concise manner

[BeanGW]

Wow Kdawg... woke up on the wrong side of the crib this morning? :wink: I happen to agree, but I'm prone to wordy responses myself. Forgive me.Aseem. You are very good at arguing your rationale, but you fail to incorporate a few important points:First. When you just call, you say he might check... I think he is more likely to bet the river than check. So if you improve (which will require you to hit your six outer), you can make up the extra bet there. Second, Plenty of times you will be three-bet and have to fold when you could have seen the river that occasionally will improve your hand.Third: Sometimes you will raise, he will call, and he will bet the river because he has improved, even when you have improved as well (such as the possible case here).Fourth: Also, let's say you get your wish, and he checks the river to you and you miss. You are still probably beat. I think a lot of people might misunderstand the rare times when raising for a free showdown might be best. IMHO, if you had A-3 it would be an excellent play, because you might sometimes win with a little two pair U/I. However, when you miss, a river value bet might be chip spewing because a worse hand will rarely call, and you don't want to have to call a river bet either. Finally, as Keith said, when you hit your hand, by playing it the way you did, I think raising the river was pretty much a necessity.With an unimproved A-K, a free showdown will rarely be beneficial for you.

[Mattnxtc]

akishore said:

Mattnxtc said:

would have helped a great deal if you had a read on the mp

except he folded on fourth street.aseem

oops...i really need to quit posting when im tired