74 replies to this topic

[JFarrell20]

So last night I'm playing a 10+1 NL SNG. Single table.I've got about 725 in chips, there are 7 total people left, including me.2 people have less than me, 3 people have more.I'm in the BB and get dealt AJo. Blinds were only at 15/30 at this point. UTG pushes all in for about 325. Fold, fold, fold, next guy on the button just calls the 325, even though he started the hand with only 400 chips.Hmmm, I see that as a mistake whenever someone just calls someone elses all in that they have covered. SB folds. It's to me, and so I make it 400 to go (putting that other guy all in as well), and leaving me with 325 with no more action to come... both players are all in. So I see this as a chance to 'double up' even though I'm not all in. I feel that my AJ is good here, and that if I win this, we'll be down to 5 players (top 3 are in the money).We all turn our cards over. JA for meJ10 off for UTGJQ off for the other guy. (why did he call?? lol.)YES! I probably couldn't be in much better of a spot. I'm dominating with my ace, all I need to do is dodge a 10 or a queen. Pretty good shot here.Needless to say the board brings a 10, and no help to me or the other guy. So the guy who initiated the all in, yet had the worst of it, ends up tripling up... I only won 75 from the other guy in the side pot. That guy goes out in 7th. I'm down to 300 something...and go out shortly after when I see the BB for free with 72 off and flop comes 7 3 K. only one other guy in the pot, so I just push all in here, he calls immediately and shows a K4, to knock me out. (I didn't want to give him any free cards since I already made mid-pair).So my question is... do you guys think I should have called that hand with A J off? it was a pretty close call, but I saw it as a great opportunity to double up without risking more than about 60% of my chips.

[digitalmonkey]

Calling with A-J seems acceptable to me. However, pushing all-in with 7's and a K on the board was suicidal.

[Wilderness]

digitalmonkey said:

Calling with A-J seems acceptable to me.

I disagree and here is why: It turns out that you have both hands dominated, but before they flip them over you have to assume that at least one of them has you beat. They are both fairly short-stacked, so when the first guy goes all-in, you can certainly assume he will push with hands better than yours as well as many hands that you have beat as well, so it might not be too bad to call (although you don't have a big stack my any means so I wouldn't think this is the place to make that call). However, once the second guys calls for most of his stack, I think you have to fold and assume he's very likely got you beat. As it turns out, he made the call with a bad hand, but there is no reason for you to assume that and risk a big bulk of your stack at this point. The blinds are not a threat to you, yet, but it won't be too long until they are and if you call and lose (which is likely since at least one should be ahead of you) then you are suddenly at ~10xBB and short-stacked.There are going to be better spots and better hands with which to commit 50+% of your chips and so you should wait until those opportunities arise and not force yourself into a short-stack at this point in the tournament.

[rusmac31]

Given that you have 25x big blind left and you are calling 2 all-ins for half your stack....I'd fold.Without the hindsight of knowing the cards, I'd say you are a coin flip at best or a big underdog at worst.This early in the tourny, I'd fold. If it was 1 all-in, maybe...but even then AJ os doesn't seem like a hand to call an all-in.I might go all-in with it but not call in this situation.My 2 cents! :-)

[rusmac31]

"I'm in agreeance with Wilderness"...lol

[JFarrell20]

Thanks guys. My thought is, since I'm playing for first, I probably need to seize that opportunity and go for it. Who cares if I go out 6th or 10th, I had a good shot at getting some quality chips at that point.(I figured the other guy wasn't very strong b/c he made the mistake of just calling the all-in, and not moving all in himself. I knew I had him. And the UTG guy... well he was pretty low stacked so I put him on Ace-garbage.Digital, if you had 300 left with the blinds at 30, and you are heads up and you flop middle pair against a guy with more chips than you, what would you do?? I'm curious. I think pushing in here with any pair on the flop is correct. Can't let him see any more cards. If he's got a King, he's got a King, so be it. I'm short stacked..

[Wilderness]

JFarrell20 said:

(I figured the other guy wasn't very strong b/c he made the mistake of just calling the all-in, and not moving all in himself.  I knew I had him.  And the UTG guy... well he was pretty low stacked so I put him on Ace-garbage.

That's one way of looking at it, although you could consider that he had a good hand and that by calling for most of his stack he was letting everyone else know that he had a good hand and wanted to play heads up. I agree with your A-x or at best, a low PP for the original guy; I just would have gotten out of the way when the second guy called for most of his chips. You'd think he wouldn't call with what he did, even given that the original all-in could easily have a not great hand. Most of what I put the 1st guy on (A-x, small PP), is still ahead of the QJ.So I'd have folded, been surprised when he turned over QJ, entered in my notes on him what he just did and that he's an idiot, then been happy when that 10 hit.I can understand your reasoning, and you turned out to be correct about both players even though the one guy hit his 10, but I think there are better spots to try and make moves and increase your stack significantly.

[wrto4556]

I'm going to pick you apart J. :-) 1) Why were you at 700 at the second level of the tournament. Seems like you're playing too loose. Can't say for sure, but I try never to get under 1,000 so that I can play solid when the blinds are bigger. There's really not much money to be won in the beginning.2) Gap concept. It takes a stronger hand to call a raise, than to raise yourself. First guy raises, calling hand recquirements increase, second guy calls, you should have atleast AK. Wether you're playing to win or not, this is a losing oppertunity. I assume you are playing to win, calling with AJo after and all in and a call will not win you the tournament. 3) I don't know the whole story about the 72 vs K4, but personally I would have checked. If you want to win the tournament, you have to look for good spots to get all your money in the middle. Middle pair with the worst possible kicker isn't a great spot. You could have atleast waited. Patience is a big part of poker. I know you know that, but it's really hard to put into practice. IMO you could have waited for a much better spot.4) You never had many chips to take chances with. You should have been playing solid poker, trying to build your stack so you can get more aggressive. This sort of reverts back to number one. Keep your chips in the early round and just try to build your stack, so that you will have enough money to be aggressive when the blinds get big and the pots get huge.

[rog]

JFarrell20 said:

Thanks guys.  My thought is, since I'm playing for first, I probably need to seize that opportunity and go for it.  Who cares if I go out 6th or 10th, I had a good shot at getting some quality chips at that point.

I agree with the above posters who say call 1 but not 2 all ins...one of them probably has a hand.As for your seize the moment philosophy, I personally dont buy into it. I have a lot to learn, and I may come around to that POV at some point, but right now, I see it as an admission that you cant finesse your way into a dominant position. You have 25XBB more or less. You have tons of time to make a move. If you feel outclassed, you probably need to win a coin flip (you were 54% on this one), but if you are confident that you can beat this game, why are you taking that gamble? I guess in this situation, where you're risking half your stack to double up on a coin flip it's not so bad, but it's the general philosophy I question. rog

[JFarrell20]

[quote name='"wrto4556"]I'm going to pick you apart J. :-) 1) Why were you at 700 at the second level of the tournament. Seems like you're playing too loose. Can't say for sure' date=' but I try never to get under 1,000 2) Gap concept. It takes a stronger hand to call a raise, than to raise yourself. First guy raises, calling hand recquirements increase, second guy calls, you should have atleast AK. 3) I don't know the whole story about the 72 vs K4, but personally I would have checked. If you want to win the tournament, you have to look for good spots to get all your money in the middle. Middle pair with the worst possible kicker isn't a great spot. [quote="wrto4556"']The tourney was on Party Poker which starts you out with only 800. Plus, I started the tournament UTG so the blinds hit me really early. Not sure how I can justify calling the second all-in...to me I just had a feeling that that guy assumed it would be a heads up hand, and he forgot about the people behind him (hence his failure to push all in). This made me think he had a nominal hand...something that my AJ was dominating. I know what you mean though, but in this case, I really had a feeling that I had them both dominated. I saw it as a chance to make a call to double up early when I'm only risking about 60% of my chips. (Even if I lose, I'm not that short-stacked just yet). But if I win here... I'm in a really good position. In this case the upside was worth so much more than the downside, IMHO.Well, with the 72... I certainly could have checked it... but what's the point? Why give him free cards? PLUS, my thinking was that he would assume I was making a move with nothing, call me, and realize I hit a pair and I could actually double up. I REALLY think you just have to push all in here and not let the flop go any further. I had three options with middle pair: Double up, steal the blinds, or go home. Pretty good odds when you've hit a pair with only 2 cards to come and it's heads up.[/u]

[JFarrell20]

rog said:

As for your seize the moment philosophy, I personally dont buy into it.  I have a lot to learn, and I may come around to that POV at some point, but right now, I see it as an admission that you cant finesse your way into a dominant position.  You have 25XBB more or less.  You have tons of time to make a move.  If you feel outclassed, you probably need to win a coin flip (you were 54% on this one), but if you are confident that you can beat this game, why are you taking that gamble?  I guess in this situation, where you're risking half your stack to double up on a coin flip it's not so bad, but it's the general philosophy I question.  rog

An admission that I can't finesse my way to the top?? I think not! Generally, I play very tight in the early stages, and get a feel for who raises, who chases, etc. In fact, I was probably 50%/50% here on whether or not I should call. In this case, I thought, "If I'm the favorite (assuming), then this is an easy opportunity to take a big pot and knock two guys out". What's the problem?? Let me ask you this rog...If the two players who were all in flipped over J10 off and JQ off, and you had AJ, would you have made the call? I hope so for your sake! I'm not saying I knew their cards, but it was very clear to me that I was ahead. (Honestly, if I knew they both had jacks, I would have made the call instantly).Getting your chips in (400 to win 725) when you are more than 50% to win is about as good as you can ask for.

[Smasharoo]

Calling with AJ here is terrible.

[jogsxyz]

Smasharoo said:

Calling with AJ here is terrible.

Terrible?? Smash, you have no credibility!! :!: On the another thread you were livid that wedidn't understand that a 10XBB stack can haveanything. The 10XBB stack opens all-in. The 400 stack aware that the shorter stack may bepushing, calls. Therefore these two opponents'hands may be weaker than normal for this action.I think the call/fold decision is close. Infact in this case JF was the favorite againstthe two opps. If you can't call the shortstacks as the favorite, when can you call? I know, you must call when you are the underdog,as in the another thread.

[wrto4556]

jogsxyz said:

Smasharoo said:

Calling with AJ here is terrible.

Terrible?? Smash, you have no credibility!! :!: On the another thread you were livid that wedidn't understand that a 10XBB stack can haveanything. The 10XBB stack opens all-in. The 400 stack aware that the shorter stack may bepushing, calls. Therefore these two opponents'hands may be weaker than normal for this action.I think the call/fold decision is close. Infact in this case JF was the favorite againstthe two opps. If you can't call the shortstacks as the favorite, when can you call? I know, you must call when you are the underdog,as in the another thread.

He doesn't have the chips here. I was chip leader with KQ. Big big difference in situations here.

[Smasharoo]

Terrible?? Smash, you have no credibility!! ExclamationOn the another thread you were livid that wedidn't understand that a 10XBB stack can haveanything. The 10XBB stack opens all-in. The400 stack aware that the shorter stack may bepushing, calls. Therefore these two opponents'hands may be weaker than normal for this action.I think the call/fold decision is close. Infact in this case JF was the favorite againstthe two opps. If you can't call the shortstacks as the favorite, when can you call?I know, you must call when you are the underdog,as in the another thread.The fact that you can't diffrentiate between the two RADICALLY diffrent situations likely explains why you're not very good at tournament NL Holdem.Work on that.

[jayboogie]

I'd have to say it's not such a great call. Your up against 2 all-ins, it's very doubtful you have the best hand, so why call? Eventhough you did have the best hand, even if your opponents have rags, but live cards, your still going to win less than half the time. Your not winning a lot of money here either. If you wait for a better hand to go all-in and double up, you'd win about the same amount of money, but with better odds on your side.

[jayboogie]

also your push with middle pair doesn't make much sense either considering all your getting is your opponents minimum bet, if you were going to steal, you should have done that pre-flop. What you did there was high risk and low reward, which is never a good combination. If you were intent on stealing, a strong bet would have gotten a fold if your opponent had nothing instead of risking all your chips on a hunch that he missed the flop.

[JFarrell20]

Smasharoo said:

Calling with AJ here is terrible.

What a surprise...Smash disagrees with my play. Smash, you must be joking here. The difference is I have an ace in my hand, not king high. I knew I was ahead of both players. I risked 60% of my chips to double up and knock two guys out in the middle stage of the tourney. If I lose here (as the favorite), I probably don't finish in the money. If I win, there is a much better chance of finishing top 2.WRTO, to you I would reply that the reason I made the call is because I didn't have the chips. I saw it as a good opportunity to double up . If I'm chipleader here, there's less of a likelihood that I'm going to make the call. Because I don't have to. But with a less-than-average chipstack and a great opportunity to double up without being knocked out, I think you gotzta call. 4th place or 10th place makes no difference to me. I play for first, and I think you have to make this call if you want first. You can't let great opportunities pass you by.If you are chipleader you don't need to call 'opportunities'when you are below average you do need to call 'opportunities'.

[Wilderness]

JFarrell20 said:

Smasharoo said:

Calling with AJ here is terrible.

What a surprise...Smash disagrees with my play. Smash, you must be joking here. The difference is I have an ace in my hand, not king high. I knew I was ahead of both players. I risked 60% of my chips to double up and knock two guys out in the middle stage of the tourney. If I lose here (as the favorite), I probably don't finish in the money. If I win, there is a much better chance of finishing top 2.WRTO, to you I would reply that the reason I made the call is because I didn't have the chips. I saw it as a good opportunity to double up . If I'm chipleader here, there's less of a likelihood that I'm going to make the call. Because I don't have to. But with a less-than-average chipstack and a great opportunity to double up without being knocked out, I think you gotzta call. 4th place or 10th place makes no difference to me. I play for first, and I think you have to make this call if you want first. You can't let great opportunities pass you by.If you are chipleader you don't need to call 'opportunities'when you are below average you do need to call 'opportunities'.

The point is that you will not be the favorite a lot of the time and will often be dominated. You are risking a huge portion of your stack in a situation when you are most likely behind, so its not a good opportunity to double up. If you knew what they actually had before you had to make your decision, of course you'd want your money in when you have both hands dominated, but you have no way of knowing that.You are looking at the results (that you had both hands dominated) and not at what you could logically assume when you pushed 60% of your stack into the middle. If I hold 72o, push all-in in a situation where its not needed, get called, and flop a boat, does that mean it was the right play? No, it means I got lucky, and you were lucky that you weren't behind or a big dog.

[Smasharoo]

What a surprise...Smash disagrees with my play. Smash, you must be joking here. The difference is I have an ace in my hand, not king high. I knew I was ahead of both players. No, you didn't.You had no idea and got involved in a multiway pot with a marginal hand.That's much diffrent from being heads up with that same hand.