small pocket pairs

[JackDeuce 0]

How do you all normally play small pocket pairs 22-88 mainly in a small stakes LIMIT holdem game? I always try to limp in from any position and probably fold to a raise pre-flop. Not hard to limp in small stakes it seems and if I dont improve to a set drop it. Reason I ask is alot of times its only one bet to see the turn and may times I would have made the set on the turn but is this profitable? When I do make a set on the flop they always pay off good. Thoughts?

[bluff2much 0]

Against 1-2 players,w/ positiom, and rags on the flop....thats how u play them. If its checked to you on the flop then go for it, then u can check the turn, or keep betting depending on what u put your opponents on.jason

[Smasharoo 0]

Reason I ask is alot of times its only one bet to see the turn and may times I would have made the set on the turn but is this profitable? Nope.Set them or forget them.

[Guest]

if you limp in with a small pocket pair and get raised, call. if there is a raise and you haven't acted, or a 3 bet, then consider folding.

[TheGamester 0]

"No set, no bet" is a good rule of thumb but perhaps a little more color. First, I do distinguish 77 to 99 as mid-pairs (TT is a tweener). The mid pairs can still be good with a rag flop and no paint on the board, and I will continue to value bet them if I think they are good. The small pairs (66-22) are more problematical. If you are playing below $2-$4 limit holdem, you can call with them from early position and hope to hit your set. I usually play 2-4 and 3-6 and will fold small pairs from early position, sometimes call from mid-position, and almost always call from late position. If I have two raises in front of me and not too many players in the pot, I will lay them down. If I am in late position and there are several callers to a raise or reraise, I will play them because the pot is obviously offering you better odds. No limit is different. I will try to see a flop with any pocket pair because if you hit you have the potential to bust someone so the pay-off is better. The only exception to all of the above is if I think I have a particularly good read on a player. Against a loose maniac, I might call him down even if I don't hit my set if I think he has missed the board. Against a tight player, the opposite would apply.The Gamester

[JackDeuce 0]

Thanks for the replies all just wanted to make sure I was playing these right and not losing money on them. Its sometimes tempting to want to see the turn if its cheap but unless the pots really big Ive been dumping them.

[offmandh 0]

No limit is different. I will try to see a flop with any pocket pair because if you hit you have the potential to bust someone so the pay-off is better. People too often forget that they play the same hands the same way every time. This is what distinquishes pros from good players. You have to mix up your play (escpecially in no limit or higher stakes limit games). If you limp in no limit, I will pretty much know what you have UNLESS you mix it up. Raise with 44 from a middle position, limp in with AK. Just mix it up. Changing speeds is what ive heard it reffered to as. Chagning speeds is the key to advancing your game.

[JFarrell20 1]

Just remember a set isn't even that strong in limit. This is due to the fact that people often chase and catch straights and flushes, leaving your set steamrolled. At a small table of 2-4 players total, a set is pretty strong, but not usually at a larger table.

[TheGamester 0]

Agree on limit and changing speeds but a set or trips is still a pretty good hand and will win a lot of large pots in limit. It's much easier to see what people are drawing to in limit so you have an option to fold or make a single bet to call if you think someone has hit their straight or flush. Remember, too, that once you have hit a set in limit, your odds of making a house with two cards to come are not bad because you just have to pair the board. That gives you two possible cards to pair on the turn and 3 cards to pair on the river, or 6 and 9 outs respectively, plus your 1 out to hit your quad. You usually have the odds to call to overtake the straight or flush.Changing gears is good from time to time in both games. But for online, I think this is less so because players are in and out of the table and won't notice much. In a live cash game, I absolutely agree, especially if you are known as a tight player. The Gamester

[Smasharoo 0]

Just remember a set isn't even that strong in limit. This is due to the fact that people often chase and catch straights and flushes, leaving your set steamrolled. At a small table of 2-4 players total, a set is pretty strong, but not usually at a larger table.That's about the dumbest thing I've ever read.

[looshle 6]

Just remember a set isn't even that strong in limit. This is due to the fact that people often chase and catch straights and flushes, leaving your set steamrolled. At a small table of 2-4 players total, a set is pretty strong, but not usually at a larger table.That's about the dumbest thing I've ever read.

Well the value of set decreases in limit but it is still extremely strong. The times people catch their straight or flush will be repaid by the times they miss. Sets are powerful no matter if it is limit, NL, or PL, they just lose more often in limit than NL because people might have the odds to draw, but they still make a good amount of money in the long run when you take the the huge pots. Just cause they lose more often in limit doesn't make them any less valuable.

[JFarrell20 1]

Just remember a set isn't even that strong in limit. This is due to the fact that people often chase and catch straights and flushes, leaving your set steamrolled. At a small table of 2-4 players total, a set is pretty strong, but not usually at a larger table.That's about the dumbest thing I've ever read.

Smash, we are done 'flaming'. No matter how bad you want it, we are not gonna fight anymore. I am totally right when I say the a set isn't that strong in limit [relative to NL]. You can't tell me you feel the same way when you flop a set in a 10-handed limit game as you do in a 10-handed NL game. If you feel the same, then your person has not evolved much since caveman days. I never said it's not strong. I just said it's not that strong in limit. I would definitely make a deal where I could flop a set in limit every hand for the rest of my life. That wasn't the point.Stop being such a flamer Smash

[Smasharoo 0]

Smash, we are done 'flaming'. No matter how bad you want it, we are not gonna fight anymore.I am totally right when I say the a set isn't that strong in limit [relative to NL]. You can't tell me you feel the same way when you flop a set in a 10-handed limit game as you do in a 10-handed NL game. If you feel the same, then your person has not evolved much since caveman days. I never said it's not strong. I just said it's not that strong in limit. I would definitely make a deal where I could flop a set in limit every hand for the rest of my life. That wasn't the point.Stop being such a flamer SmashDon't flatter yourself. I didn't even notice who had posted it. It's mindbogglingly stupid to think you're better off with a set on a table with 4 people where pot size will allways be too small to bother calling with a small pocket pair pre-flop.You want to flop a set in a big pot in limit. You get big pots in limit by having large multiway pots with lots of people in on the flop.Sets make so much more money 10 handed in limit than shorthanded it's not even worth discussing further.If I happen to call things you say stupid a lot it's because you say stupid things. Not because it's you saying them. I barely remeber who you are most of the time.

[NorthPacific 25]

I have been trying a new strategy with low and middle pp in late position. Any insight to the long term profitability would be appriciated. If I have no raises into me, I raise. This a lot of times gives me a free card on the turn if I don't hit my set on the flop it gives me one more chance. Of course if I am re-raised I have some decisions to make.

[Smasharoo 0]

I have been trying a new strategy with low and middle pp in late position. Any insight to the long term profitability would be appriciated. If I have no raises into me, I raise. This a lot of times gives me a free card on the turn if I don't hit my set on the flop it gives me one more chance. Of course if I am re-raised I have some decisions to make.It's a horrible money losing play if you're making it to see a free card.The card's not free, one. You're just paying the flop bet in advance some of the time, and some of the time you'll be bet into on the flop anyway.Two, the idea with small PP especially is to get in cheap, and get paid off the 1 time in 8 that you flop a set. You make it HARDER to get paid off when you spend an extra bet each time. Now instead of getting paid off with 8 small bets by the end of the hand you need to get paid off with 16 bets by the end of the hand when you do hit the set.Three, think about what the extra bet actually does for you if you do get to see a free card. When you pay to see the flop you're seeing 3 cards for one bet. This is why it's ok to take a shot at flopping a set because you have 3 chances to hit one of two outs for one small bet. Seeing the turn for an additional small bet gives you an additional single chance to hit your set at 22-1. There are situations where you might raise for other reasons, but it's a *very* situational play.The thing about it that's particularly bad is that it's very deceptive and you are going to win bigger pots when you do hit the set so it'll seem like a good idea. They're not twice as big, though, which they'd need to be for it to be worth it.Stop it.

[JFarrell20 1]

Smash, we are done 'flaming'. No matter how bad you want it, we are not gonna fight anymore.I am totally right when I say the a set isn't that strong in limit [relative to NL]. You can't tell me you feel the same way when you flop a set in a 10-handed limit game as you do in a 10-handed NL game. If you feel the same, then your person has not evolved much since caveman days. I never said it's not strong. I just said it's not that strong in limit. I would definitely make a deal where I could flop a set in limit every hand for the rest of my life. That wasn't the point.Stop being such a flamer SmashDon't flatter yourself. I didn't even notice who had posted it. It's mindbogglingly stupid to think you're better off with a set on a table with 4 people where pot size will allways be too small to bother calling with a small pocket pair pre-flop.You want to flop a set in a big pot in limit. You get big pots in limit by having large multiway pots with lots of people in on the flop.Sets make so much more money 10 handed in limit than shorthanded it's not even worth discussing further.If I happen to call things you say stupid a lot it's because you say stupid things. Not because it's you saying them. I barely remeber who you are most of the time.

Smash, your inconsitency has now reached a previously undiscovered level. Applaud yourself. Now I know why you need to account for such variance in your game. You get involved with pocket pairs moreso at big tables, than at small tables.Thanks for the clarification.

[Smasharoo 0]

Smash, your inconsitency has now reached a previously undiscovered level. Applaud yourself.Now I know why you need to account for such variance in your game. You get involved with pocket pairs moreso at big tables, than at small tables.Thanks for the clarification.Which part was confusing to you? The part where you win more money with more people in the hand or the part where when you don't win a lot of money smal pairs lose value?

[JFarrell20 1]

The clarification I'm speaking of is in regards to your needing such a huge bankroll to play in limit games. You just clarified why you can lose 200XBB in a bad streak. It doesn't matter man, less people in hand means more likely you win; but less money when you do.More people in hand means less likely you win; but more money when you do.It's the same frickin thing moron. The difference is you said you thinks it's pointless getting involved with pocket pairs at a small table. Don't you realize that at a small table, sometimes a mid-pocket pair can actually hold up as top pair??? No way this happens at a large table.Stop playing like this and you won't hit 200XBB "bad luck" streaks.

[JFarrell20 1]

(this post is an addendum to the previous)

It's mindbogglingly stupid to think you're better off with a set on a table with 4 people where pot size will allways be too small to bother calling with a small pocket pair pre-flop.

LOL

[rog 0]

I gotta agree with Smash on this. Small pocket pairs are played as drawing hands. Drawing hands need lots of callers to make the pot odds favorable. By wanting fewer callers you are playing it like a made hand, folding out the weak draws, but lowering your own pot odds to keep going. The real problem is, once you fold out the weak draws, you're left with all the hands that are ahead of you, and the better draws. Sure 44 may stand once in a while 3 way, but if that's your strategy, you're going to lose a lot of money IMO.Rog

[KDawgCometh 2]

How do you all normally play small pocket pairs 22-88 mainly in a small stakes LIMIT holdem game? I always try to limp in from any position and probably fold to a raise pre-flop. Not hard to limp in small stakes it seems and if I dont improve to a set drop it. Reason I ask is alot of times its only one bet to see the turn and may times I would have made the set on the turn but is this profitable? When I do make a set on the flop they always pay off good.

yes it is best to limp in early and if there are gonna be four or five palyers it is not necessarily wrong to call ONE RAISE, do not call a three bet. If there is a pre flop raise depending on the pot size, you need about 13-1(implied odds work here if there is no flush draw or one of your pockets is of that draw) to make a call for the turn somewaht playable as if you hit you should win a fair amount of double size bets which is where the implied odds come in. I know this seems a little loose but your goal here, if the pot is offereing you the right odds, is to win a really big pot, which you will as long as a redraw doesn't happen. Always count the amount of bets that go into the pot. In skalanskys small stakes HE he talks about this. Also be aware if you don't flop a set of other draws that you might have, in a raised pot if everyone calls and its five handed if you check early and there are just some bets, no raises, you can then call if you have a gutshot to go along with the set draw because you should be getting around 12 or 13-1.

[KDawgCometh 2]

as an add on, I know that there are gonna be critics of this play, but here is where I'm coming from, I'm useing the odds to win a really big pot, the implied factor works into play here. Now if there is a flush draw and one of my set cards could complete that flush then there aren't nearly enough odds for me to call with. Also note that I said there have to be at least four people in this pot, prefrebly five or six so that this call can be justified to be paid off with many big bets. I'd also like to note that my general style of play is super aggressive once I'm in a pot, like if someone has big cards and I have 55 and the over cards are like a 7 or an 8, maybe a nine then I more than likely have the best hand, obviously if paint flops then I'm out of there faster than Lawerence Taylor can blow a line

[Smasharoo 0]

It doesn't matter man, less people in hand means more likely you win; but less money when you do.More people in hand means less likely you win; but more money when you do.You PAY the same amount in each situation to see the flop, which will miss you with small pocket pairs 7 times out of 8.Understand?You don't hit sets any more often with 33 in a 3 way hand. It's more likely that it will hold up unimproved, but your visability is terrible and it will be almost impossible for you to ever KNOW when it's the best hand unimproved, therefore you're going to be forced to fold it the vast majority of the time that it would be best or take it to the river eery time you think it might be best.EITHER WAY You lose money.IS this clear yet, or should I try too have a coloring book printed up?Stop playing like this and you won't hit 200XBB "bad luck" streaks.Hahaha. I'll take the 200XBB "bad luck" streaks that are statistically inevitable for anyone considering there's nothing I, or anyone else can do to prevent them other than playing so passively as to leak money away on a consistent basis to avoid occasioanlly having a bad week.It's a shame that you're never going to post about your losses on this board because you don't have the courage, but I really think it would help your gamea lot if you could be honest about how little you know and just how poorly you really understand the game.Someone who's never played in their lives is going to surpass you in skill in a week because they have the ability to learn and get better and you apparently don't.It's your money manWhen you're beating 3/6 for 2.5 BBX100 for 100,000 hands give me a call.Oh wait, what the hell am I saying. When you're beating any game for any amount over 20,000 hands let me know.Good luck.You're gonna need it.

[JackDeuce 0]

Lots of good info here thanks all :wink:

[JFarrell20 1]

Yes Smash, you are paying the same price to see the flop, big deal.We're talking about the difference between 2 opponents and 5 opponents right?You may see the flop for the same price at the bigger table, but even if you hit your precious set, there is still a strong likelihood that people will stay in to chase flushes and straights, that you cannot buy out b/c it's limit. Playing like this will win you big pots, when you win, but you may lose this way 6 times before you win and be down 20XBB or more before you know it. My point is, this is why you personally have to account for such variance in your game, due to the fact that you chase big pots. I mean you said yourself that at a small talbe a small pocket pair is not even worth calling pre-flop! Nonsense, sure, you may only be getting double-return on your bets with 2 opponents, but there is a HUGE chance that they will not flush or straight you, and your pair may hold up (you can sense this by the fact that they may not be betting/raising). And, if you hit a set at a small table, you are VERY LIKELY to be able to raise freely on the river.My point is, that if you play more of these hands in smaller pots, you should soften up your 'bad streaks', because you won't be so dependent on the long ball, when all you need is a few singles here-and-there.The only bonus argument for your point of view is that, at a big table, if you play small pairs and flop a set, that means that the board is showing at least 1 small card (the one that filled out your set). This means that if the other 5 are playing paint cards or medium suited-connectors, etc, then you have a slight edge in the sense that this one card out of 5 most likely did not help them with a straight or a flush. You didn't bring this point up though so I will.And go back and look, I have mentioned losses on here. You never have though, other than your blanket statement "-200XBB".