20 replies to this topic

[custom36]

Even the good get weak.Empire Poker 3/6 Limit Hold'em (10 handed)Hero is big blind with [Td] [7d]UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, 5 folds, Hero calls, UTG 3-bets, MP2 calls, Hero :roll: and callsFlop (12.5 SB): 8c Jc 9sHero checks, UTG bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls, UTG callsTurn (9.25 BB): 9hHero bets, UTG calls, MP2 raises, Hero calls, UTG callsRiver (15.25 BB): 2hHero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, UTG callsFinal pot: 18.25 BBUTG's limp raise preflop told me he had AA or KK. My read was pretty solid here.MP2 is a decent player with a giant ego. He can't let go of overpairs and sometimes AK. Then he complains about getting drawnout on. I've really only seen him call down when he thinks he might be beat. Read is AA-TT and AK, AQI think preflop is a pretty standard blind defense. Didn't expect UTG to limp-raise.On the flop, I didn't want to check/3-bet or lead out because I was afraid it would kill my action.On the turn, I figured UTG to check in hopes to check/raise and MP2 to check behind. I didn't want to take any chances so I bet out.On the river, I chickened out and check/called, worried about JJ. It's not like MP2 to raise an overpair or AK like that. Should I have bet out?

[wrto4556]

i like a check/3-bet on the flop or a bet/cap because it looks like you'll get action.

[custom36]

wrto4556 said:

i like a check/3-bet on the flop or a bet/cap because it looks like you'll get action.

And the rest?

[popeye18]

How bad is folding here preflop?

[custom36]

popeye18 said:

How bad is folding here preflop?

Semi-bad. They're suited 2-gappers and both could be live. I know if I hit fairly well, I can win a big pot; while, if I miss or the board comes A-7-2, I can lose a small pot.The more I think about this the more I like my defense here.

[akishore]

i'm not a fan of the defend here.each gap worsens your hand significantly more than the previous one. that is, 10-9 suited is pretty strong, 10-8 suited is good, 10-7 suited is marginal, while 10-6 suited is very borderline.if there was one more guy in the pot, it would be closer and i wouldn't mind as much. but in what is going to be a three-way pot, i don't like the defend.suited connectors/gappers do best multiway because they need good implied odds to chase gutshots (this is the most common draw you'll pick up on the flop), and you really can't afford to pay two bets for these even when the pot is four-handed, much less three-.post-flop, i think you played it pretty weak, but you know that too.i REALLY like leading out on this flop because it's almost guaranteed that someone will raise behind you. the hand plays out differently then.if UTG raises and MP flat calls, i like calling and going for a checkraise on the turn.if UTG raises and MP three-bets, i like capping it right then and there. most turn cards will be safe for you, so you don't want to be checkraising MP2 and making UTG face two cold. he's more likely to call two more cold on the flop than two cold on the turn.then on the turn, bet out if MP was the last aggressor but checkraise if UTG was the last aggressor. now, you shouldn't be slowing down... three-bet here, i mean. the board pairing really shouldn't trouble you so much since the highest card is a jack.i think you could have gotten much more out of this hand if you decided to play it preflop.aseem

[popeye18]

I thought you were sb there. Im calling from the bb but id definently fold from the sb especially in the 1/3 blind structure.

[custom36]

akishore said:

i'm not a fan of the defend here.each gap worsens your hand significantly more than the previous one. that is, 10-9 suited is pretty strong, 10-8 suited is good, 10-7 suited is marginal, while 10-6 suited is very borderline.if there was one more guy in the pot, it would be closer and i wouldn't mind as much. but in what is going to be a three-way pot, i don't like the defend.suited connectors/gappers do best multiway because they need good implied odds to chase gutshots (this is the most common draw you'll pick up on the flop), and you really can't afford to pay two bets for these even when the pot is four-handed, much less three-.

I'm in the BB. I'm getting 4.5-1 on my call here, and 5.5-1 if we count UTG's call of the raise. I have good implied odds here, because I'm clearly going to get at least a calldown. I can win a big pot or lose a small pot - why don't you like this again?On the flop, I thought UTG was going to 3-bet after my cold-call, so I'll defend that.My turn lead out was weak, yeah. Should I have 3-bet or would that have chased out UTG?We won't talk about my river play. :wall:

[custom36]

popeye18 said:

I thought you were sb there. Im calling from the bb but id definently fold from the sb especially in the 1/3 blind structure.

No doubt.

[popeye18]

Quote

No doubt.

I was about to quit poker cause i was sure it was an easy fold haha.

[akishore]

Custom36 said:

I'm in the BB. I'm getting 4.5-1 on my call here, and 5.5-1 if we count UTG's call of the raise. I have good implied odds here, because I'm clearly going to get at least a calldown. I can win a big pot or lose a small pot - why don't you like this again?

pot odds are just part of the story. implied odds are more important, i think.take these two situations:three players limp to you on the button. since the BB is definitely in, you're getting 4.5-to-1 on your money with 10-7 suited.UTG limps, MP raises, you're in the big blind. again, you're getting 4.5-to-1 on your money with 10-7 suited (it's a reasonable assumption that UTG will just call and not fold or reraise).both have the same pot odds, but the implied odds are significantly different.implied postflop odds mostly have to do with how multiway the pot is and how loose the players are. against two players, i don't think you can expect as much bang for your buck as what i think you need to play 10-7 suited profitably (especially out of position... no free card play, for example).being in a three-way pot against what seems to be two hands that are big pairs or big cards isn't attractive to me at all.as for the lose-a-small-pot, win-a-big-one, i'm not sure how you figure that. i would agree with that in NL, but i don't think it's true in limit. you're [edit: NOT] flopping straights very often with this hand. what you're much more likely to flop is a a backdoor flush draw, a gutshot draw, a flush draw, and an open-ended draw (in the order of most likely to least likely).with this three-way pot, you often won't get the odds to chase the first two, and even when you flop the second two draws, you'll be paying money (probably more than one bet on at least the flop, etc.) to chase, and you won't hit most of the time, either.i don't understand how you figure to either lose a small pot or win a big one, because you're often going to be chasing and that creates big pots to lose.further, i find it hard to believe that you'd defend here but not play it for pair value. if the flop comes 10-8-2, are you really going to play it passively or just let it go on the flop? this is another scenario where you are just as likely to win a big pot as you are to lose one (in some cases, you might even just win a small pot versus losing a big one, when two big cards don't give you as much action as you want sine the flop missed them).i don't know, maybe it's close, but i just don't like the defend here. the little things of not being multiway enough, being out of position, not being a strong enough suited connector, not being able to play it for pair value confidently enough, etc., all just make it unattractive to me.aseem

[Mattnxtc]

blind defense has been killin me lately...custom since u spend so much time on it...what are some of ur "rules" u use when deciding wether to call from the bb and sb..from sb ill limp with high suited cards and or any 2 face cards and any pocket pair...against a raise i narrow it to any pp above 8 and 2 facecardsfrom bb ill only call raises with high suited cards...109 may be the lowest id go..and most pocket pairs and 2 facecards suited unsuited...of course ill raise the aces and kings but they dont give me those often in the blinds

[custom36]

Mattnxtc said:

blind defense has been killin me lately...custom since u spend so much time on it...what are some of ur "rules" u use when deciding wether to call from the bb and sb..from sb ill limp with high suited cards and or any 2 face cards and any pocket pair...against a raise i narrow it to any pp above 8 and 2 facecardsfrom bb ill only call raises with high suited cards...109 may be the lowest id go..and most pocket pairs and 2 facecards suited unsuited...of course ill raise the aces and kings but they dont give me those often in the blinds

I mostly use the SSHE reccomendations. From the SB, I don't really change much from what I'd call a raise with UTG+1 or MP1. In the SB, I haven't put much money into the pot (I have $1 in, it'd be another $5 to call the raise), and I'm horribly out of position. This isn't a desirable spot and I don't want to be in there without a big hand.From the BB, I'll call with any 2 suited cards down to about 9-7. I'll call with any pocket pair, AQo, and possibly KQ offsuit. I obviously 3-bet monsters. I will not play hands like AQo, AJo, ATo, QJo, KJo, JTo.A lot of what I do is read-dependent, so you won't always see me practice what I preach. I'm pretty good at getting reads on a table (assuming I pay attention, of course ). I can also outplay a lot of my opponents post flop, which makes being OOP a bit easier to take.

[custom36]

Aseem, I saw what you said. I'm not ignoring you. I'm trying to think up a response that doesn't keep us running in circles.

[wrto4556]

come on guys, this is a really easy preflop call.

[akishore]

wrto4556 said:

come on guys, this is a really easy preflop call.

why exactly?aseemedit: if you knew it was a steal-raise, it's a very easy preflop defend. but, it's not a steal raise.

[brian67]

I don't think the preflop play here is 100% fold or call everytime no matter how you look at. 10-7 suited can play well in a multi-way pot. As for the blind defense side, i'm with aseem here. This is not a situation where you are heads up against a player in steal position raising your blind. The real thing is that as long as you have a pretty good idea about what you are up against you can play lesser quality hands and definately hit enough favorable flops to make it worth your while.

[Steppin Razor]

I'm not much of a slow player, but I think the flop is okay, combined with a check raise on the turn. I don't know about the PF call, but I don't hate it. Cracking big pairs is fun (until it happens to me).

[custom36]

brian67 said:

The real thing is that as long as you have a pretty good idea about what you are up against you can play lesser quality hands and definately hit enough favorable flops to make it worth your while.

Bingo. I had one rock solid read and one pretty good read, which makes postflop play (against poor postflop players) oh so much easier. According to SSHE, you should be playing most suited hands from the BB anyway, though.

[brian67]

...but again, this is clearly not a hand you can play every time you get it in that same situation. I personally really love these little middle hands, they can be very profitable when played correctly. You could say the OP played a little weak here, but being cautious in this case was clearly on purpose. I say well played, it's good to be cautious as long as its based on something other than just fear.