13 replies to this topic

[rusmac31]

Playing Party Poker multi table tournament (NL Hold'em) last night when this hand came up:Background:440 people (130 left when this hand came up)Blinds: 50/100My chip stack: 2300 (about average)In middle position, I get dealt 10c, 10h. I raise to 400.Small blind (had about 4500 chips) and big blind (had about 4500 chips) call (everyone else folds). - 1200 in the pot pre-flop.Flop comes 4d, 5d, 10d. I hit a set but there are 3 diamonds on the board.I'm first to act and my thought process is this:1. It's about 100 to 1 that either of them hit their flush on the flop so I'm a little concerned about the flush but not much.2. If one of them has the K or A of diamonds, I can't let them hit their flush cheaply so I can't slow play my set.3. I have to at least bet the pot, but by betting the pot, I'm pot committed anyway (would have only 700 chips left)4. If they do hit their flush, I still have 10 outs (10s, and 9 cards for the board to pair for full house).So, I go all in for 1900...small blind folds...big blind calls with Ad, Js...River is 3d and to add insult to injury the river is 6d...flush on board and he has the Ad.I get knocked out in 130 place. I don't think I should've played it any different and I don't think his call was horrible either (in his mind he had 15 outs with 2 cards to come) but I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.Regards,

[Wilderness]

I think your thought process and play was pretty good there, it would be hard to get away from the hand at that point, and you are about 70/30 to win at that point. Of course that pretty much flip flops in his favor when the diamond hit on the turn, but you still had outs and you got your money in with the best hand with a decent edge.Tough break, but not a really bad beat and you played it as well as you could have.

[JFarrell20]

I think you messed up pre-flop.Double the BB, since you are in mid-position. You only have to worry about a couple more callers and the blinds. Dont throw 4XBB in there with 10-10. If you want to buy the pot now just move all in. What are you expecting here? 1 caller? Then what? Dodge over-cards on the flop? I don't like that. Just double the BB, and hope to flop your set. I don't think you'd get re-raised here b/c your bet says respect. If you do, you can strongly think about pushing all in over the top. But assume you'll just get called. As far as the flop is concerned, I think this would have helped you b/c the pot would have only been 600 now and you can throw out a feeler bet which isn't such a high percentage of your overall stack. Play on from there. You had no diamond so theoretically you could have thrown out 300 on the flop. Got 1 fold. Got 1 call. Turn comes another diamond, now it's up to you... I'd probably check/fold. You can try to throw out another weak-lead here but I really don't think I'd waste any more time on this hand. Check/fold.This way you would have only spent 500 on this hand, and been left with 1800 (about 80% of average... enough to resume play).PS: You could have thrown 100-299 out there on the flop for your feeler bet but this may have kept both players in.

[rusmac31]

JFarrell,I think you raise a good point on my pre-flop bet...I thought 400 might be big enough to buy the pot right there but obviously not. Betting 2x the blind probably would've been a better play.However, after the flop comes, with a set but a flush draw out there, shouldn't I bet the pot to make it expensive for him to hit his flush?I agree that raising 2x the big blind and then betting 300 after the flop would have given me more reason to get away from the hand. However, only betting 300 gives him correct odds to call (which is what I don't want).Shouldn't I make it so that his call is the wrong decision (statistically)?Your thoughts?Regards

[Smasharoo]

You played it fine.

[Pearl]

my two cents for what it's worth - your play is fine. not so positive that i am qualified to comment for tournament plays given i am mostly a mid to high cash NL player. in tournaments, maybe tight is right. another way - not necessarily the right way to play against a more sophisticated player might be to just call, and if someone raises, reraise all in representing rockets. - or just call, and push when you hit the set. 2x bb raise is just as beneficial (or not) as not raising because it means nothing. if you are going to be tight with your 10's, you might as well not raise. (KJ from button may call a 2x bb raise but may fold to a 5x bb mid position raise - so if you intention is to drive out AKQJx, then your bet is just fine.)

[JFarrell20]

rusmac31 said:

JFarrell,Shouldn't I make it so that his call is the wrong decision (statistically)?Your thoughts?Regards

Well, sure, but what if he flopped it? I think I spelled it all out pretty well. Besides, even with keeping him in the pot, if he is on a draw with two cards to come, he is only about 35% to hit it. Not too scary.PS: Take Smash's advice with a grain of salt. He will never agree with me :roll:

[rusmac31]

JFarrell,The odds of someone hitting a flush on the flop are 100-1 (something like that). With those kind of odds, I don't see how I should be that concerned with him flopping a flush (less than 1% chance). I think the bigger concern would be a Kd or Ad flush draw.I would think that with the nuts (hitting top set) like that, you would want to make and oversized pot bet or pot bet to make it expensive for him to hit his flush.Otherwise, you are giving him the correct odds to call which is a no-no according to poker theory.I do appreciate the dialogue...

[jogsxyz]

rusmac31 said:

In middle position, I get dealt 10c, 10h.  I raise to 400.Small blind (had about 4500 chips) and big blind (had about 4500 chips) call (everyone else folds).  - 1200 in the pot pre-flop.Flop comes 4d, 5d, 10d.  I hit a set but there are 3 diamonds on the board.I'm first to act and my thought process is this:1.  It's about 100 to 1 that either of them hit their flush on the flop so I'm a little concerned about the flush but not much.

You are playing against the two blinds. Why are you first to act??What 100 to 1? That may be the odds of you flopping a flush with two suited cards. Dont know too lazy to calc. Here the flop IS 3 suited cards. The odds against one opponent holding 2 diamonds is about 24 to 1. You have two opponents. Therefore it about 11 or 12 to 1.

[flatidea]

I think you played it well. That was a borderline call from him. Too bad you were up against a bigger stack who felt he could take the hit if the board didn't flush out for him.

[NYSPOKER]

rusmac31 said:

I think you raise a good point on my pre-flop bet...I thought 400 might be big enough to buy the pot right there but obviously not. Betting 2x the blind probably would've been a better play.

If your intent was to buy the pot pre-flop, you need to raise more than 4XBB, with bigger stacks yet to act behind you. 4XBB is enough that anybody with a shot at beating you will call you.Depending on your feel, raise BIG, or see the flop cheaply. Personally, I like buying the pot pre-flop. PP10s are too susceptible to being out-flopped. You got lucky enough to flop your set, with no overcards but, the single-suited flop did you in.b.t.w. after the flop, you did not have much choice. Checking would be way to weak a play here, or would it. It would depend on your feel for the table. If you have a good read on your opponents, you may be able to determine their hand, by the way they react to your checking. Is either the type to value bet the flush draw? Would either try to push you out, knowing they held the A, therefore even a made flush would be leary - not having the nuts.Tough one - I do not think you played it badly, just need to define your intentions with your pre-flop action. If trying to buy the pot, bet like you mean it. If not, do not overly commit yourself. Sorry for the rambling.

[rusmac31]

You are right, I was last to act after the flop and they both checked to me.Actually the odds of flopping a flush with 2 suited cards in hand is (11*10*9)/(50*49*48) or about 120 to 1.I think I like the suggestion to buy the pot right there (before the flop). I'll file that away for future reference.I appreciate everyone's input.Regards,

[jogsxyz]

Okay, the chance of flopping a flush when playing two suited cards is 118 to 1. When the flop shows 3 suited cards, the chance of one of two opp holding two cards in that suit is about 12 to 1. This assumes any two cards are equally likely. This isn't true, is it. Players are more likely to play two suited cards.Look at the hand from the ace of diamond, side jack point of view. He doesn't know that you have a set. He has 9 flush outs and may have 3 ace outs and even 2 more jack outs. His call looks mandatory.

[Smasharoo]

PS: Take Smash's advice with a grain of salt. He will never agree with meThat's not true.Once you become a better player we'll probably agree all the time.