29 replies to this topic

[Smasharoo]

The GoalTo turn $50 in my first Pokerstars deposit into $1000.The RulesI'll play only Limit games, primarily Holdem, though I might mix in some O8 or Stud etc. later on.I won't move up in limits without at least 300BB for the new limit. I will post hands that I win and lose and explain my thinking behind how I played them.I'm too lazy to spellcheck. Deal with it.Day 3 O8 in the land of the clueless.Well, after being surprised by how tight the Holdem players were in the .05/.10 games I think I found the nutty low limit whacko players I was expecting at the O8 tables.For those of you unfammiliar Omaha 8 or better, or O8, is a high low game where the spot is split between the best high hand and the best low hand if one can be made where all the low cards are 8 or under.You are dealt 4 cards pre-flop and must use two cards from your hand to make your best high hand and your best low hand. You can use the same card for a high as you do for a low, but you must use two cards from your hand for each hand. Aside from that it plays pretty much like Holdem.I only had two hours or so to play and the one .5/.10 table running was full and I didn't feel like waiting to I played .02/.04.Wow. The other players were nearly all completely cluless. I mean clueless like didn't understand the rules of the game at all.O8s a game of playing for "scoops" where you win both the high and the low or just the high if there's low possible. Limit O8 sometimes presents situations where playing for half the pot is profitable, particularly at loose tables. O8 is largely about pumping nut hands and getting away from marginal ones. Here's an example of the bewildering play:PokerStars Game #1089515949: Omaha Hi/Lo Limit ($0.02/$0.04) - 2005/01/17 - 04:42:48 (ET)Table 'Ortutay' Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: Fats488 ($4.76 in chips) Seat 3: billie1466 ($0.28 in chips) Seat 4: ronsefeld ($0.10 in chips) Seat 5: tooldog00 ($0.87 in chips) Seat 6: cheeze12 ($0.11 in chips) Seat 7: lillis ($0.85 in chips) Seat 8: thecandle ($2.90 in chips) Seat 9: JGassen ($0.70 in chips) JGassen: posts small blind $0.01Fats488: posts big blind $0.02doggod: sits out *** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to thecandle [Qc Qd Kd 6s]With the two Qs I have a one way high hand that's fairly easy to get away from. I have a suited QK which offers some chances, but mainly I'm looking to flop a Q on a board that isn't overly coordinated. The 6 in my hand here is pretty much useless. It's a marginal hand worth taking a shot with if you have opponents who will go too far if you flop big.billie1466: calls $0.02ronsefeld: raises $0.02 to $0.04tooldog00: folds cheeze12: folds lillis: calls $0.04thecandle: calls $0.04JGassen: calls $0.03Fats488: calls $0.02billie1466: calls $0.02I probably fold this to two cold in a less loose game, but the implied odds for hitting the set are clearly there on this table so I call the two cold. I have no read on the guy raising other than he sucks, but that's pretty much my read on the whole table.*** FLOP *** [Qh 8c 4h]Yay. I have the best hand and the board isn't that coordinated. The flush draw is the only worry.JGassen: checks Fats488: checks billie1466: checks ronsefeld: bets $0.02lillis: calls $0.02thecandle: raises $0.02 to $0.04Best possible hand atm, pot equity, etc. Can't think of a reason not to raise.JGassen: folds Fats488: calls $0.04billie1466: calls $0.04ronsefeld: raises $0.02 to $0.06 and is all-inlillis: calls $0.04thecandle: raises $0.02 to $0.08Betting is cappedFats488: calls $0.04billie1466: calls $0.04cheeze12 leaves the tablelillis: calls $0.02Hey, let's cap it.*** TURN *** [Qh 8c 4h] [Ts]Fats488: checks billie1466: bets $0.04lillis: calls $0.04thecandle: raises $0.04 to $0.08Fats488: calls $0.08billie1466: calls $0.04lillis: calls $0.04Someone could have 9j and be ahead of me here, but the good news is that a low is that much less likely with the T (good because I can't possibly make one). If I could have I'd have capped it again with very likely the best hand and lots of outs to the FH if someone has the straight.*** RIVER *** [Qh 8c 4h Ts] [8h]Fats488: checks billie1466: checks lillis: checks thecandle: bets $0.04Fats488: calls $0.04billie1466: calls $0.04lillis: calls $0.04*** SHOW DOWN ***thecandle: shows [Qc Qd Kd 6s] (HI: a full house, Queens full of Eights)Fats488: mucks hand billie1466: mucks hand lillis: mucks hand thecandle collected $0.56 from side pottooldog00 said, "vnh"ronsefeld: mucks hand thecandle collected $0.54 from main potNo low hand qualified*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1.10 Main pot $0.54. Side pot $0.56. | Rake $0 So I scoop a 24 BB pot. Sillyness.There are more hands, but nothing particularly intresting. Typical O8 nut peadling and jamming with the best hand and scooping big pots.I don't see a lot of O8 posts on this forum so I won't waste your time with a bunch of O8 plays which were all pretty straightforward along the lines of "I have the nut low and the nut flush on an unpaired board, I'll keep raising."I'll probably go back to holdem tommorow and try to get a thousand hands or so in and see if I can't get a good jump towards $60 or at least an intresting down day.ResultsStarting Bankroll: $54.09Ending Bankroll: $55.83Playtime: 1:30ishNet: $1.74BB/Hour: Something ludicrous like 20+

[JTPHS]

Sat with you at the table today without much clue how to play limit hi/lo lol, but still made some earnings:-)... i was JTP-HS, obviously. I was the guy who scooped about 3 in a row then decided to leave lol. Do you turn chat off? or just not one to talk online? I should try to learn that game a little better... great action!

[JaysonWeber]

So Smash, You playing real conservatively in regards to the bankroll I see?How much longer you staying on these .5/.10 tables? I might play a bit w/ ya Limit is my weakest game, regardless of what type of poker, but it would be fun anyways lol

[2AceSuited]

I'll play some low limit Hold Em with you, sometime. If you'd like. If not, I'll keep checking out your "blog" or whatever, because it's a good read.

[Ed]

Smash,Interesting that you did this yesterday. I did the same last night. I got fed up with some play at the HE tables, so instead of playing 2 HE tables at once (I generally don't do more than 2 at a time), I played 1 HE and one O8, both at .02/.04. Holy crap. Ended up turning a buck into $2.51 in 2 hours, a nice total of nearly 19BB/hr. If you hit a nut hand, you can absolutely count on multiple callers.The key really seems to really be getting away from your marginals as quickly as possible. And finding a reason to fold pre-flop if your cards really don't carry many possibilities. The only couple frustrating hands I had included flopping a set on 2 occasions, and having only 1 person stay in, gunning for nothing more than the low - and then having them stumble into the wheel on the river to beat me. But that's life. I got plenty back out of my big hands to be OK with that. With a decent HE session last night, as well - backed by taking back-to-back pots with pocket KK, I did well to reverse 2 bad sessions. Still not where I thought I'd be at this point. On the HE tables I've tried to be too aggressive in spots where people simply aren't going to go away, and it cost me pretty good. Have to be a bit more selective - I think the most likely culprit is I was just getting impatient because for a long stretch I wasn't seeing any cards. After the first 90 or so HE hands in yesterday morning's session, I had taken 10% of the flops. I've never had a number that low.Oh well, just for comparison's sake, here's my toteboard so far.Started: $12.Current: $15.88.Up: $3.88 for 15 hours of play, all at .02/.04 tables.It's +6.47 BB/Hr., which I feel like is low, but in the grand scheme of things, at least there's a "+" sign before it instead of the other alternative. Given that I've had 3 negative sessions out of 8, I guess that net number is OK.Don't know if I'll get to play tonight. It doesn't look like it.Keep up the great reports,Ed

[Smasharoo]

Do you turn chat off?Yeah, ussually. Sorry. 4-tabling, etc.

[ahosang]

Just to re-emphasize what smasheroo and ed have said:If you learn to play Omaha8 properly, you can make a mindbogglingly easy profit at some of these online low-limit games. You can play pot-limit as well(which involves other considerations with driving the betting and pot sizes - as well as deeper insight into 3/4ing) although that's a little bit trickier, but once you get the hang of that, the profit is just the same and more. Your bankroll for limit omaha8 can be less than it is for 'Texas', and your hourly rate should be higher. In fact, if you don't beat the low-limit online game for AT LEAST 4-5 BB/hr long-term, there are some serious leaks in your play. Smasheroo, why don't you just play omaha8 for the lower limits of this project(which will get your bankroll up quicker)? Then play 'Texas' when the omaha8 games dry up at the higher stakes and the Texas hands will be more interesting! Just a thought.Then again, maybe you want something more dangerous, shadowy and challenging like Texas, whereas extracting money from some of these omaha8 players could be done by well-trained chimpanzees :roll:

[CharlieBrody]

"If you learn to play Omaha8 properly, you can make a mindbogglingly easy profit at some of these online low-limit games."I just don't get how the profit can be "mindbogginly" when like you said 4-5 BB a hour is a good win rate so what is that like a buck a hour? This project is the stupidest thing in the world. Why dont you play 5 dollar sngs and 10 dollar heads up. There are a ton of bad players in there and much easier to build up your roll that way.

[MDXS]

Quote

I just don't get how the profit can be "mindbogginly" when like you said 4-5 BB a hour is a good win rate so what is that like a buck a hour?

Mindbogglingly easy that is. Remember, adverbs modify adjectives, verbs, and other adverbs, but not nouns. And to repeat the sentiments of others, if you don't like the project, then don't read it.

[VirginiaGent]

JaysonWeber said:

So Smash, You playing real conservatively in regards to the bankroll I see?How much longer you staying on these .5/.10 tables?  I might play a bit w/ ya  Limit is my weakest game, regardless of what type of poker, but it would be fun anyways lol

Wants 300 BB in the bankroll to move up, so figure it out....to move to $0.10/0.25, he's looking for about $75? And so on...

[The Sheriff JBJ]

First of all this is a great read. If I were you, id keep the posts you make and put a book outline together. Pad it out with a few funny stories and maybe some analysis from a third party and its something I know I havent seen. (Correct me if im wrong)Do you feel it will hinder your plans if forum members come and join you during games. Rather than just playing poker stars fish in the low stake rooms, before you progress?Finally, excuse me if this as been asked and answered, but will you include any sit and goes in this experiment or all cash games?Great stuff!

[JimmyWellington]

CharlieBrody said:

"If you learn to play Omaha8 properly, you can make a mindbogglingly easy profit at some of these online low-limit games."I just don't get how the profit can be "mindbogginly" when like you said 4-5 BB a hour is a good win rate so what is that like a buck a hour? This project is the stupidest thing in the world.  Why dont you play 5 dollar sngs and 10 dollar heads up.  There are a ton of bad players in there and much easier to build up your roll that way.

What do you call a creature that hides under the bridge and comes out to try and get a rise out of people??A WITCH!!!no. no. not a witch. a TROLL!!!! I know I'm guilty of feeding the trolls sometimes, but lets try not to in this case...

[Smasharoo]

Nah, most people starting out play Holdem. Playing O8 for a few weeks would be boring.

[Smasharoo]

Finally, excuse me if this as been asked and answered, but will you include any sit and goes in this experiment or all cash games? Read the first post of any of the threads where its says "Rules":)I don't really want to play NL or tournaments for this because there's the potential for me to catch a good variance swing and get to $1000 quickly, leading people to believe it's simple.Also I could catch some bad variance and loose the money.Boy, wouldn't I look silly preaching bankroll management constantly on this forum then

[ahosang]

Thanks MDXS for explaining to Charlie what 'mindboggingly' referred to. And to add, I said low limit, meaning not just micro-limit. $1/$2 and $3/$6 are low-limit, so at $2/$4 for example, that would be $20/hr - not bad. I also said 'AT LEAST', so you could make more if you played your opponents better(by bluffing appropriately) as opposed to just mechanically proceeding with nuts and nut draws. And since I play mainly pot-limit, I might be wrong about the exact rate being sustainable, but I am NOT wrong about a rate of 10 BB(that's big blind now!) in the pot-limit arena. But that's a bit more subtle a game than the limit version.

[Smasharoo]

I think it's funny how many of the people who post "Winning at ML is pointless" are the same people who say "You can't beat these bad players who suck out on you constantly!!"

[The Student]

Good work Smash, really well thought out and executed. I see your point in having atleast 300 x bb before moving up in limit and in hind sight i could have saved a lot money not going into game under-bankrolled. I'm really getting a whole lot out of this, keep it up.

[superchuck]

MDXS said:

Quote

I just don't get how the profit can be "mindbogginly" when like you said 4-5 BB a hour is a good win rate so what is that like a buck a hour?

Mindbogglingly easy that is. Remember, adverbs modify adjectives, verbs, and other adverbs, but not nouns. And to repeat the sentiments of others, if you don't like the project, then don't read it.

haha. owned.

[gobears]

Time for another bump

[BeaverStyle]

{{{{{{I don't know how my comment will be taken, but to fully understand your goal here, i have a question.

Are you trying to get from $50 to $1000 using perfect bankroll management?

Reason for asking:

I recently went on a [/b]sick[b] run at pokerstars, turning $100 into $900 in roughly 3 days. I did not use proper bankroll management. However, i played TAG at higher levels. I began 3 tabling .25/.50NL w/ $20 buyins (yeah, i know 3/5 of my BR....) After turning a very nice session, i moved up to 2 tabling .25/.50NL and 1 tabling .50/1NL.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't really take any bad beats, and once i got a higher bankroll, i played a more LAG style at the lower limits which i find is very effective in the cash games at pokerstars.

Just my two cents, if you truly are trying to reach your goal w/ proper BR management, good luck to you sir, and i hope you do it to set an example that proper br management will conquer in the end.

-beaver




stupid me, read the top and you're only playing limit. My comment is hereby void.