17 replies to this topic

[Hold_Em]

just some backround on this hand, it was a home game, at the time it was 3 handed and we were playing 1/2 NL. I had about 350 sitting in front of me from my 80 buy in.I get dealt A K on the big blind, dealer folds, small blind calls, i raise it to 8, small blind calls the extra six.Flop comes K 4 8 SB bets 6 i raise to 18 he calls.Turn comes K SB checks, I bet 35 he calls.River comes Q SB checks i bet 60, he raises all in another 80 or so and I call, not even thinking him for a flush.SB turns over 3 7 clubs and takes it down with a flush.My question is, is there any way to get away from a hand like this? I can legitemently say now i should have folded, but heinsight is 20/20. Is there any way I can fold this hand on the river after the raise ( I don't believe there is because of the money in the pot) or would a smarter play been to just check it and have a showdown. Looking back at it and playing this hand over and over in my mind I believe the only way i could have won this pot was to go all in on the turn when the third king came out and he almost would have had to folded.Also, do you think it was a bad call by the small blind the whole way down? I was mad at first because I know i did not give him the pot odds to call but his implied odds were huge, knowing that if he hit his draw he would most likely double up...Just looking for some input/advice on the hand. Anything is welcome.

[strategy]

Just looking at the action, I would have put him on KQ the whole way, which is why I would have just looked to get a showdown once the river hit. Looks like the guy has seen Rounders.I could be wrong, but I think it's pointless to value bet the river. He's got to have the case king, but he also cannot have his most likely kicker with it. I've been known to leave a few dollars on the table due to caution before.

[Hold_Em]

The only reason I couldnt put him on KQ is because at a three handed table i Believed that he would have raised pre flop.

[strategy]

Hold_Em said:

The only reason I couldnt put him on KQ is because at a three handed table i Believed that he would have raised pre flop.

He seems like a tricky guy capable of doing a number of things like limping with KQ. Do you think he knew he was making an implied odds call on the turn?

[MasterLJ]

I'm a firm believer in stopping action in NL. Yes it means that that set will own you if the flop is just right, but 90% of the time you will take down smaller pots, or require players to risk all their chips for a draw that certainly isn't profitable in the long run.All in that turn every time. Again, you are dead to a set, but I guarantee that a set won't hit that as many times as you win. If he wants 5 to 1 to hit a flush, you are getting paid in a big way.

[justblaze]

check the river. easy $140 save. what calls you there that you beat? a worse K, which you would probably hear from on the turn, or a flush. thats it. easy check on the end.

[wannabe]

check the river

[JesseW316]

I definitely would have checked the river. While reading the hand, I figured him for KQ on the turn, so the river screwed you over and you have to check. If you do bet the river and get raised, I think I am going to fold this almost every time. What hands would he go in with on the river that you have beaten? This is where I, once again, just like every other situation, have to go to a read.The reason I prefer live games is because people that play like this guy did most definitely will give away his hand. Based on my opinion of this guy, "marching bands were going off in his head" when that club hit, and it is an easy fold. Until the river, I love the way you played the hand. Great aggression and no slow-play, congratulations on being the one person in ten that gets it right. Maybe bet more like 40-45 on the turn. If he is going to call the 35, he is going to call the 40-45. Nice hand, bad luck.

[Hold_Em]

In retrospect I probabally should have checked the river, but after putting him on a weaker king I couldnt put myself to it. I knew he did not have KQ as being an agressive player would have raised with a hand like KQ in a three way pot. I put him on a hand like King ten, in that area, and untill he raised the river I did not even realize there were three to a flush. I thought about folding the river but after doing the math it didnt make much sense because of how much I had invested and the chances I had of winning that hand. Thanks for the input, keep it coming.

[JesseW316]

I don't want to piss you off or anything, but I think not recognizing that there is a flush draw on the board is a leak. Make sure you always know what is out there and what beats you. While you are trying to put someone on a hand, you should go through the hands he is representing, see how they fit the board and then compare that to the probability of his' holding each of those hands.

[Hold_Em]

I completely understand what you are saying. With how he had been playing with him getting the wrong pot odds to call I could not put him on a club draw, while I should have been aware that it was out there. I knew the two came on the flop and that he could possibly be drawing but I did not think that he would have called the raise.

[rbakken2504]

Yes, check the river, but more importantly, on 4th street, you should of been thinking about the scenarios on the river, if he has a flush draw and hits on the river, assuming you aren't going to be able to make a tough laydown, why not just push all-in on the turn and make him pay a huge price to get to his flush. Now, if you thought you could make the tough laydown, then bet the turn so you are giving him just a little less than 4 to 1 or so, so he's still paying the wrong price, then if it hits make the fold on the river, you'd still be gaining from that play.

[greatwhite]

Fishy table. What the hell is he doing in there with 73 of clubs would be my question? I don't think betting on the river is that bad of a play here.(50-50) They played that pretty tricky on the river. However 73?

[strategy]

greatwhite said:

Fishy table. What the hell is he doing in there with 73 of clubs would be my question? I don't think betting on the river is that bad of a play here.(50-50) They played that pretty tricky on the river. However 73?

Shorthanded play leaves a lot of room for creativity. He could just as easily be a very skilled player knowingly investing his money on implied odds.

[Hold_Em]

He was just an agressive type player who liked to see a lot of flops, i would expect this call from him.Thanks for the input, I think my biggest mistake in this hand was not going all in on the turn because I wholeheartedly believe he would have folded and if he called well thats just bad luck.After he raised all in for the last 80 i had to call the 80 more. There was about a 10% chance he was outright bluffing, as he is not afraid to pull this kind of a move if he thinks it will pay off. I will give him a 50% chance he has a flush and a 40% chance he has a smaller king. Now because of these numbers I believe I am justified in calling this all in bet because i am getting much better then 2 to 1 on my money therefore I will make money in a number of these situations. Yet again thanks for the input and advice, keep it coming if anyone else has anything to say.

[HtotheNootch]

Unless you've got him for a set of 4s or 8s. Empty out on the turn. You'll never be better.I've even seen arguments at 2+2 for pushing the flop harder.edit: I changed first paragraph to turn as I meant originally.

[Nutcracker]

I'd get all my money in on the turn. The hands you are the most ahead of (Kx), are the ones most likely to call an all in. Hands that have the best chance to beat you (if not ahead already) will fold. win/win

[thebolb33]

Check that river mayn.