82 replies to this topic

[Jordan]

Alright fellas. This is the first post I've made in this section of the forum regaurding a hand I played. For the most part I think that I made the "right" play, and just happened to end with bad results. Before I get into details, let me give you some background.We are at the, duh-duhn, final table of a 3 table tournament. Started with 21 people and was worked down to the final 6 when this hand came up.Big blind was 2400, small 1200. I'm in the BB with about 33k infront of me. Levels are raising every ten minutes. I have played with the SB once before in a stupid little cash game, just for fun, so other than that, and a few other hands from earlier in the day, I have no real play experience with him. I have however picked up on the fact that he plays like a book, and by that I mean, raises whenever he is first to enter the pot, or if it is folded to him on the button/SB. I actually remember him mentioning at our little cash game reading helmuths book, which I have not, but I'm sure it tells you to raise the button.Anyways, it's folded to the SB who, as I expected, raises 5k on top of the 2400. I look at K-6o and decide to call cause I know he is just raising to raise (when I look back at this hand I think my mistake was in perhaps not re-raising preflop - however I am confident in my post flop play and was already planning on making a play at the pot). Flop comes 10-9-2. Again, I was planning on him to bet the flop no matter what, and he of course does. He fires 5k, I delibrate for a few seconds and call with the intentions to bet when he checks to me because I am about 90% positive I have the best hand, and with position on him, he will most likey check/fold unless he actually has top pair or second pair, and with that I think he will continue to bet (or perhaps even ace high).Turn is a 4 and he checks to me. He gave me that look (you know it if you'd seen it) and says, "I check to ya". Now I'm about 95% sure he will fold this hand, not only cause he has nothing, but I probably actually have the best hand with just high card. I decide to bet the rest of my stack, which was 22,200. I think the all in bet was the best move, but not completely sure. I suppose I could have bet 10k, but in my opinion that would seem (at least to me) as a weak bet into a big pot. If I were to bet 15k or 17k I think that would look fishy just leaving behind a handful.Either way, I knew I had him outplayed and again, as I said, pretty certain I had the hand straight up.He deliberated for a while, and finally called with Q4o. River was a blank and I was out.I was surprised by this call, as my bluffs are not called much, but I stand behind my read, play, and action despite the end result. I really only make this move late in tournaments and espicially with solid reads.Ugh, I forgot to mention he was the big stack at the table. I don't know his count, but I think if he would have called and lost he would have been slightly below par. That may have factored into his call?So to try and make a point of this...what do you think? Unlucky he out..."turned" me and called with third pair? Hah. Bleh, I think that's all I wanted to write...my personal feelings on the hand are that he made a crying call on the turn, which I really don't know why anyone would check/call 22k...cuz I don't know many players that trap with third pair...however, I believe my biggest error, if any, was to not re-raise preflop...or perhaps even the flop.Thoughts? Flames?- Jordanps- seriously, he didn't fire the turn...yet called the turn. Do you really think he was "trapping" with third pair? I still don't believe he was.

[Smasharoo]

Let the big stack have the blinds.Don't bluff into the big stack.Try not to get involved with him at all unless you're *sure* you're way ahead.Attack the weaker players, not the strong ones, that's what they're there for.His call was horrible, but he's a lot more likley to make it than a short stack is.

[wrto4556]

Why do you always steal what i'm going to say??

[Jordan]

Smasharoo said:

Let the big stack have the blinds.Don't bluff into the big stack.Try not to get involved with him at all unless you're *sure* you're way ahead.Attack the weaker players, not the strong ones, that's what they're there for.His call was horrible, but he's a lot more likley to make it than a short stack is.

Bleh. I suppose my post was just rambling. I dunno. I was sure I was "ahead" in the hand, which I was I guess until the turn which wasn't really a scare card. Forget this post...probably could only comment on it if you were the one playing the hand.anywho- Jordan

[Smasharoo]

Forget this post...probably could only comment on it if you were the one playing the hand. No, it's a bad play regardless of who's making it.Trying to talk yourself into thinking it's ever good to make this play against the biggest stack at the table with K high is talking yourself into losing more money long term.

[BigEasy6]

After the flop, why didn't you raise? With a hand like K6o, you can't afford to give many cards. You take the play away from him on the flop if you feel he missed the flop. If he calls your raise, you know he has a piece of it. You can stop right there unless you catch a K on the turn. When he folds, you pick up a nice sized pot. The last thing you want to do with a weak player or even a rock is give them another shot at making any sort of hand. He probably figured you didn't have any of the flop because you just called. Once he caught the four, your bet didn't mean a thing. He knew you didn't have any of the flop. If you did, you would have raised. He put out a great feeler bet and your call told him what he wanted to know. He made a good play and a good read.

[Jordan]

He didn't put a feeler bet. He check/called the the turn for 22k.I shouldn't have tried to explain this play I made. Perhaps I was correct in thinking not many people make the play?I was playing him, not my cards. I thought he was weak and calling him would slow him down, which it did, I just didn't believe him to have a 4 in the hole, and if he did, certaintly wouldn't call with it.peace.- Jordan

[Jordan]

Smasharoo said:

Forget this post...probably could only comment on it if you were the one playing the hand. No, it's a bad play regardless of who's making it.Trying to talk yourself into thinking it's ever good to make this play against the biggest stack at the table with K high is talking yourself into losing more money long term.

No, it's not a bad play regardless of who's making it.I think I made the right play because of my read. I didn't think a 4 would be able to call me there and I was wrong. I believe I was unlucky he caught a 4, as he could not have called me with Q high which I beat with K high. I don't know how much NO limit you play, but if you can't bluff confidently, even at a big stack, then you can't play no limit. I was playing to win, not blind myself away.I knew I could outplay this guy and he caught a card to beat me. I've made many bad plays in my day and I remember probably every single one. Yes, he made an "amazingy" call but I am certain if one check/calls with third pair consistently, the pot will be going opposite directions.- Jordan

[tekn0wledg]

I think your all-in bet was a little fishy to be honest which is why you got called down. Too often you find people trying to buy pots with all-in moves. Judging by the description of the hand it appears that neither one of you had anything strong. Since you moved all-in on a card that helped him but did not raise prior, he figured you for having a lesser hand. He was probably debating whether or not you have a slightly better hand but then figured he'd take a chance.Either way, I don't like the all-in move in this situation. 99% of the time it will work though so it's hard to say "don't do that."

[Smasharoo]

I think I made the right play because of my read.Well, you're wrong.It happens. It's a horrible play, allways.

[Jordan]

tekn0wledg said:

I think your all-in bet was a little fishy to be honest which is why you got called down. Too often you find people trying to buy pots with all-in moves. Judging by the description of the hand it appears that neither one of you had anything strong. Since you moved all-in on a card that helped him but did not raise prior, he figured you for having a lesser hand. He was probably debating whether or not you have a slightly better hand but then figured he'd take a chance.Either way, I don't like the all-in move in this situation. 99% of the time it will work though so it's hard to say "don't do that."

This I can agree with...but all in was really my only move I think. The only other option was to bet half my stack and be committed. Maybe he would have folded for 11k(even though there would have been over 15k going into the turn), or pushed me back in? Either way I would be seeing the river.I'm not an "all in" type player. I really think I had him outplayed and all I had to do was bet to take the pot. - Jordan

[Smasharoo]

Just so we're clear here, let me point out that you can justify any horrible play you want with a read.I pushed all in on the AKQ flop with 7-2o because I had him on a small pair. Etc.IIf you're making bad plays and then justifying them because of your reads, your reads suck.Work on playing good poker an THEN on making great read based plays.

[Jordan]

Smasharoo said:

I think I made the right play because of my read.Well, you're wrong.It happens. It's a horrible play, allways.

ROFL. Horrible play, always? You have got to be joking me.You've never called someone's flop bet just to take it from them on the turn? What the hell man? Do you just play cards?Seriously.- Jordan

[Jordan]

Smasharoo said:

Just so we're clear here, let me point out that you can justify any horrible play you want with a read.I pushed all in on the AKQ flop with 7-2o because I had him on a small pair. Etc.IIf you're making bad plays and then justifying them because of your reads, your reads suck.Work on playing good poker an THEN on making great read based plays.

Uhm, I don't make that play unless I think I have the correct read. What do you want from me? Would you like me to post all the times I've done this with a high card and taken the pot down? Geez man. - Jordan

[Smasharoo]

Horrible play, always? You have got to be joking me.You've never called someone's flop bet just to take it from them on the turn? What the hell man? Do you just play cards?Seriously. When it seems likely they'll call and i'm ho[ping my K high is best?No, do you?Did you read the post man? Seriously, do you just not bother reading and respond without knowing what the subject is?I mean, really.

[Jordan]

Smasharoo said:

Just so we're clear here, let me point out that you can justify any horrible play you want with a read.I pushed all in on the AKQ flop with 7-2o because I had him on a small pair. Etc.IIf you're making bad plays and then justifying them because of your reads, your reads suck.Work on playing good poker an THEN on making great read based plays.

I've never done that, but I have called someone's all in bet on the flop with two over cards when I was holding a small pair. (6-6) Flop was A 7 3 I believe.Great write? Well my post has about the same meaning as your does. Nothing. Both are irrelevant.- Jordan

[Smasharoo]

Uhm, I don't make that play unless I think I have the correct read.What do you want from me? Would you like me to post all the times I've done this with a high card and taken the pot down? Geez man.I'd like you to not bother posting if you've allready talked yourself into thinking a horrible play was a good one and then arguing with everyone else who tells you it's a horrible play.It means one of two things is happening here. Either 1) You can't deal with the fact that you made a horrible play and learn from it.or2) You're Stu Ungar reborn and we're all fools. Whcih one seems more likely to you, Sparky?

[Jordan]

Smasharoo said:

Horrible play, always? You have got to be joking me.You've never called someone's flop bet just to take it from them on the turn? What the hell man? Do you just play cards?Seriously. When it seems likely they'll call and i'm ho[ping my K high is best?No, do you?Did you read the post man? Seriously, do you just not bother reading and respond without knowing what the subject is?I mean, really.

I can't explain it. I knew I had the best hand on the flop. SO I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE RAISED. That's my fault.This was live poker. I was looking this guy in the face. I knew King high was good. I'm sorry that I can't explain it, maybe I'm just pissed he called me with third pair. Either way, I can't see you berating a play I made just cause you don't seem to have the a) balls to do it, B) idiocity to do it or c) you play cards?I don't know and I won't assume. But I'm sure it's one of the above?- Jordan

[Smasharoo]

Well my post has about the same meaning as your does. Nothing. Both are irrelevant. No, both are posts about making excuses for playing badly.For no particular reason.You made a bad play, lost the pot, and posetd about it why?Because you wanted people to say "Good move, man! You have balls of steel!! You're the man!!!"Sorry, still sucks.

[tekn0wledg]

Jordan said:

I'm not an "all in" type player. I really think I had him outplayed and all I had to do was bet to take the pot.

In most situations you are correct, as I mentioned above, but given the situation of the current pot it just seemed a bit fishy. The fact that your opponent was going on the same logic you were that it was just a steal etc was a main reason he was not going to let you out of the hand for free. When he helped his hand with a pair on the turn he figured he might as well call you down.I am just guessing at his logic, I have no clue.