46 replies to this topic

[wontbez]

DCWildcat said:

wontbez said:

Flop play was bad, either lead out or check raise. Now you're in a position where you know nothing and are guessing weather he has an A or not.

What would check-raising accomplish? Calling 2 cold still gives like 9.5 to 1, more than enough to call with almost any draw. It also opens us up to a 3-bet from any high ace (as anyone with a high ace should do right here). Why pay 3 bets rather than 1 when everyone's seeing the turn and we're often behind anyway?

Gaining information!! Calling gets you nothing, betting and raising gets you tons. If you know your playing for 2 outs, you simply muck your QQ.

[PrtyPSux]

wontbez said:

If you get 3 bet you can simply place your QQ in the muck as you're probably beat. Check raising with middle pair is usually a good play because you gain information about your oponents hand and can make a decision to continue or not, you have to be able to fold QQ when an A shows up if you think he's got the A, you don't want to become a calling station, it worked out for him this time, but it's about making right decisions not results.

I think out of all of the plays, C/R would be the worst...maybe if he was button and you were SB..other wise you are just building a bigger pot. You might do this if u flop a boat or a set w/ no draws on board.IMO.

[DCWildcat]

Your advice would be good if this pot weren't so massive. The problem with the check-raise you're advocating is that we don't need the information. The flop bettor could flip his cards up and it'd be profitable for us to continue calling to the river because of the odds we're getting, barring exterme occurances. With 4 players to capped flop and a bet in front of us, there's VERY little chance we're ahead on this flop. So what do we gain by raising? We get information which we don't need since it probably won't change our play anyway. Thus we spew by raising this (calling here costs 1.5 BB to the river, c/r w/out a 3-bet is 2, and c/r w/ a 3-bet is 2.5 BB).

[wontbez]

PrtyPSux said:

wontbez said:

If you get 3 bet you can simply place your QQ in the muck as you're probably beat. Check raising with middle pair is usually a good play because you gain information about your oponents hand and can make a decision to continue or not, you have to be able to fold QQ when an A shows up if you think he's got the A, you don't want to become a calling station, it worked out for him this time, but it's about making right decisions not results.

I think out of all of the plays, C/R would be the worst...maybe if he was button and you were SB..other wise you are just building a bigger pot. You might do this if u flop a boat or a set w/ no draws on board.IMO.

Calling is always the worst play!! What have you gained? You don't get the information you need to decided if your beat or not. I agree leading out and betting on this flop would be a better play but a check raise is a close seccond. Don't call with a hand if you think your beat, don't fold until you know your beat, and fold when your beat with poor odds, I believe 2 outs is 23 to 1.

[TheIceman05]

wontbez said:

If you get 3 bet you can simply place your QQ in the muck as you're probably beat.

.....Are... is... what... who?? Are... what? WHAT??You're killing me smalls. With a pot this massive, that we've swolen by tossing tons of extra bets in there, we're totally getting the odds to draw at our 2-outer. + Backdoor flush draw.Add in the implied odds, and folding this flop IS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE for just a single bet, and even worse in the situation you describe.You've got a some very basic concepts that you need to learn.Ice

[Actuary]

2 outs with 2 cards to come is better than 23-1No one else is showing aggression, so this may be cheap.Pot size at end, justified call.Also, add the miniscule chance that you are ahead on the flop.I'm thinknig bet the river though.Yuo get 3-bets from raiser...and sb folds anywayedit: ignore the last part..I dont know

[DCWildcat]

TheIceman05 said:

+ Backdoor flush draw.

+Miraculously winning UI. Let's say that happens 5% of the time--that's worth another 2 outs.That gives us--even if we downgrade the backdoor flush with the possiblity of a higher flush-- at least 5 outs, making even a 9 to 1 call profitable.Edit: My math is horrible. You're getting much BETTER odds than what I originally had. I fixed it.

[wontbez]

DCWildcat said:

Your advice would be good if this pot weren't so massive. The problem with the check-raise you're advocating is that we don't need the information. The flop bettor could flip his cards up and it'd be profitable for us to continue calling to the river because of the odds we're getting, barring exterme occurances. With 4 players to capped flop and a bet in front of us, there's VERY little chance we're ahead on this flop. So what do we gain by raising? We get information which we don't need since it probably won't change our play anyway. Thus we spew by raising this (calling here costs 1.5 BB to the river, c/r w/out a 3-bet is 2, and c/r w/ a 3-bet is 2.5 BB).

if you're playing to 2 outs on the flop, it's not profitable, you need 23 to 1 odds to call. you're only getting 17 to 1 on flop. here is a hand that was 3 bet preflop, I hit top pair, but I'm not sure if it's good or not so I 3 bet the flop. Same idea, trying to figure out if your beat. If I get 4 bet on this flop I call and fold on the turn if I don't improve. Since the flop wasn't 4 bet, I put the raiser on a draw and the initial preflop raiser on AK. Paradise Poker 20/40 Hold'em (4 handed) converterPreflop: wontbez is Button with [Tc], [Ac]. 1 fold, BB calls, wontbez calls.Flop: (9 SB) [Td], [7h], [9h] (3 players)SB bets, SB calls, BB calls.Turn: (9 BB) [Ts] (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, wontbez bets, SB calls, BB calls.River: (12 BB) [Qd] (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, wontbez bets, SB folds, BB calls.Final Pot: 14 BBResults in white below: BB has Js Qc (two pair, queens and tens). wontbez has Tc Ac (three of a kind, tens). Outcome: wontbez wins 14 BB.

[wontbez]

TheIceman05 said:

wontbez said:

If you get 3 bet you can simply place your QQ in the muck as you're probably beat.

.....Are... is... what... who?? Are... what? WHAT??You're killing me smalls. With a pot this massive, that we've swolen by tossing tons of extra bets in there, we're totally getting the odds to draw at our 2-outer. + Backdoor flush draw.Add in the implied odds, and folding this flop IS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE for just a single bet, and even worse in the situation you describe.You've got a some very basic concepts that you need to learn.Ice

You can't count a Q high backdoor flush draw as an out with 4 players in the pot. You will loose money if you play that way. And to clarify, if you get 3 bet on the flop, call and fold the turn if you don't improve, sorry about that one.

[wontbez]

DCWildcat said:

TheIceman05 said:

+ Backdoor flush draw.

+Miraculously winning UI. Let's say that happens 5% of the time--that's worth another 2 outs.That gives us--even if we downgrade the backdoor flush with the possiblity of a higher flush-- at least 5 outs, making even a 9 to 1 call profitable.Edit: My math is horrible. You're getting much BETTER odds than what I originally had. I fixed it.

I would work on counting your outs. If you decide you're up against an A as determined by your flop play, you have 2 outs to the Q! Players get in trouble counting backdoor flushes when there not the nut flush. And giving yourself 2 outs for winning UI is wrong as well, where did you come up with that number?

[Steppin Razor]

Normally I would bet the flop, but when a poster raises, it usually means he has something since he can see the flop for free if he wants. I don't need information because I'm going to go ahead and give him credit for being ahead. If he's not, I lose a small bet, and if he is I save two (if he raises). I don't want to throw away my hand to a raise - I'm still alive to the Qs and BDFD. If I know I'm behind, then when I do pick up my made hand possibilities, I know I'm going to get paid off by the formerly better hand. If I don't pick up a draw, I'm out with min. losses.

[wontbez]

Actuary said:

2 outs with 2 cards to come is better than 23-1No one else is showing aggression, so this may be cheap.Pot size at end, justified call.Also, add the miniscule chance that you are ahead on the flop.I'm thinknig bet the river though.Yuo get 3-bets from raiser...and sb folds anywayedit: ignore the last part..I dont know

Quote from Jen Harmon from SSII about limping with K's from early position, applies to QQ as well and the flop play in this situation. "If someone is going to beat me with an Ace-rag hand, I want to make sure I make him pay for it before the flop. If more then three people see the flop and and ace flops, you can quietly deposit your kings in the muck. If the pot was three handed or heads up and an ace flops, you might want to test the waters and bet out. If you get raised, you'll have to rely on your judgment when it comes to deciding whether to call or fold. Your decision should be bassed on your read of your opponent. Would he raise me here with a draw?? Might he even raise me with middle pair? Does this guy ever bluff? Would this guy play ace-rag? By answering all of these questions, you should have a sufficient number of slues to help you make the right choice."

[wontbez]

Steppin Razor said:

Normally I would bet the flop, but when a poster raises, it usually means he has something since he can see the flop for free if he wants. I don't need information because I'm going to go ahead and give him credit for being ahead. If he's not, I lose a small bet, and if he is I save two (if he raises). I don't want to throw away my hand to a raise - I'm still alive to the Qs and BDFD. If I know I'm behind, then when I do pick up my made hand possibilities, I know I'm going to get paid off by the formerly better hand. If I don't pick up a draw, I'm out with min. losses.

Betting is the better play, I was simply saying a check raise is seccond, calling is bad. I would not give the BDFD any credit being Q high.I'll even go a step farther, and say that check/fold would be the seccond best play.

[RISEorFall]

wontbez said:

Quote from Jen Harmon from SSII about limping with K's from early position, applies to QQ as well and the flop play in this situation.

Most advice in SS2 is for games well above a 1/2 game. With 15 bets in this pot already PF, if you're gonna consider just mucking your cards because an A came, just quit playing poker. Or come find RISEorFall on Absolute or Ultimate Bet....

[wontbez]

RISEorFall said:

wontbez said:

Quote from Jen Harmon from SSII about limping with K's from early position, applies to QQ as well and the flop play in this situation.

Most advice in SS2 is for games well above a 1/2 game. With 15 bets in this pot already PF, if you're gonna consider just mucking your cards because an A came, just quit playing poker. Or come find RISEorFall on Absolute or Ultimate Bet....

15 SMALL bets preflop! And no I would not reccomend just mucking, if you read what I said, betting out is the best play. It doesn't matter what limit you play, calling is usually the worst option.

[akishore]

wontbez, you're missing something.if EP turned his cards over and he had A-K, you would check-fold here?if so, you are playing far too weak/tight.you gave advice earlier that calling is weak, and if you think you're beat, you should be folding, otherwise you should be raising. in GENERAL, that's right, but not always.there's SO much dead money in this pot that you are folding a part of the pot that belongs to you. through implied odds, that part is worth more than 1 SB, which is what you would be paying by calling and are saving by folding.so, calling's EV > folding's EV if we KNOW that our opponent has an ace.we're getting 18-to-1 and with implied odds, we can easily get 22-to-1 (what we need to chase) with a considerable overlay.a call is correct on the flop. if you're advocating folding to a three-bet after you bet and he raises, that's so wrong.as for whether check/calling or betting or check/raising is best, i'm still reading opinions.aseem

[wontbez]

akishore said:

wontbez, you're missing something.if EP turned his cards over and he had A-K, you would check-fold here?if so, you are playing far too weak/tight.you gave advice earlier that calling is weak, and if you think you're beat, you should be folding, otherwise you should be raising. in GENERAL, that's right, but not always.there's SO much dead money in this pot that you are folding a part of the pot that belongs to you. through implied odds, that part is worth more than 1 SB, which is what you would be paying by calling and are saving by folding.so, calling's EV > folding's EV if we KNOW that our opponent has an ace.we're getting 18-to-1 and with implied odds, we can easily get 22-to-1 (what we need to chase) with a considerable overlay.a call is correct on the flop. if you're advocating folding to a three-bet after you bet and he raises, that's so wrong.as for whether check/calling or betting or check/raising is best, i'm still reading opinions.aseem

Check calling is the worst play, followed by check/raising. Betting is the best play followed by check folding. If you decide to check raise and get 3 bet, call see the turn, but depending on the play you may not even have 2 outs, so unless you improve I would fold the turn. How ever many outs you think you have, you have to deduct from that. Realistically you should not give yourself more outs simply to justify a call, I would not count a BDFD as an out in this case, I would also possibly deduct any implied odds, in case you're up against AA.And BTW, if he had AK yes folding would be correct.

[akishore]

wontbez said:

And BTW, if he had AK yes folding would be correct.

i'm sorry, but you're wrong.we have odds to call if our opponent is playing his cards face up and he has A-K.do you realize how massive the pot is and how much dead money is in there?read "theory of poker" if you haven't.aseem

[wontbez]

akishore said:

wontbez said:

And BTW, if he had AK yes folding would be correct.

i'm sorry, but you're wrong.we have odds to call if our opponent is playing his cards face up and he has A-K.do you realize how massive the pot is and how much dead money is in there?read "theory of poker" if you haven't.aseem

15 small bets on the flop right? That means on the flop you'd be looking at 16 to 1. But you're going to call the turn too if you miss right? So add in the turn bet and you're looking at 6 to 1 ($1 on flop, $2 on turn $18/$3) Even if he didn't have a diamond, I would fold.

[akishore]

wontbez said:

15 small bets on the flop right? That means on the flop you'd be looking at 16 to 1.

no. we're looking at 18-to-1 because EP bet out and both opponents called.

wontbez said:

But you're going to call the turn too if you miss right?

no. it's often correct (as it is here) to peel one card off on the flop when you're getting correct odds but to check/fold a missed turn when your odds disappear.aseem