15 replies to this topic

[Actuary]

well, lhe ain't gonig so well, so i'm trying to get some easier money.critique please.I make this play often.I had not played a hand yet..maybe limped once or twice.Can't get converter to work.***** Hand History for Game 2372163993 *****30/60 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 13978421) - Sat Jul 16 05:45:00 EDT 2005Table Table 11062 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the buttonTotal number of players : 9Seat 1: co (565)Seat 2: button (630)Seat 3: sb (710)Seat 4: bb (1535)Seat 5: utg (1075)Seat 6: Actuary (660)Seat 7: utg+2 (850)Seat 8: mp (195)Seat 9: mp+1 (1780)sb (15)bb (30)** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Actuary [ Ac, 4c ] utg folds.Actuary calls (30)utg+2 foldsmp calls (30)mp+1 raises (200) to 200co folds.button folds.sb folds.bb folds.Actuary calls (170)mp folds.** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8c, 8d, 2c ] Actuary checks.mp+1 bets (460)Actuary calls (460)Actuary is all-In.** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2h ] ** Dealing River ** : [ 3c ] Creating Main Pot with $1395 with Actuary** Summary **Main Pot: 1395 | Board: [ 8c 8d 2c 2h 3c ]Preflop..I'm thinking at worst I'm getting 305 for 170. However, I was playing for the implied odds. I wouldnt overplay an Ace..without 2 pair. No reads..nothing extraordinaryOn the flopI considered an all-in semi bluff, but figured he'd call if he had a made hand. So this way, maybe he blufffs. Then I called based on getting 2:1 on my $$$. I had a 2nd and a 4th in the last 2 basically coasting, playing ulttra tight and wanted to try to get some chips and compete for 1st.{ side note. I got 2nd earlier winning only 1 hand the whole tourney. I entered a few pots but never saw the river. Until we were down to 4 and I had 400 or so. I tripled up..and then got 2nd. }

[strategy]

Actuary said:

Preflop..I'm thinking at worst I'm getting 305 for 170. However, I was playing for the implied odds. I wouldnt overplay an Ace..without 2 pair. No reads..nothing extraordinaryOn the flopI considered an all-in semi bluff, but figured he'd call if he had a made hand. So this way, maybe he blufffs. Then I called based on getting 2:1 on my $$$. I had a 2nd and a 4th in the last 2 basically coasting, playing ulttra tight and wanted to try to get some chips and compete for 1st.{ side note. I got 2nd earlier winning only 1 hand the whole tourney. I entered a few pots but never saw the river. Until we were down to 4 and I had 400 or so. I tripled up..and then got 2nd. }

It's hard to justify a call based on implied odds if it includes calling off 1/3rd of your stack preflop. Add to that the fact that you were out of position, and you just have to muck your hand. I stay away from speculative hands after the first level on party's sngs because your implied odds aren't there.On the flop, I would have pushed. You aren't going to catch him bluffing because you can't beat a bluff. He's going to show you AK-AJ or a middle to big pair the large majority of the time. Pushing will win you the pot without a showdown some of the time, and when you do get called you'll get the right pot odds to draw to your flush. That is win-win.The best way to win party sngs does not include brilliant postflop play. After the first 15 minutes, you almost never get to see one without committing most of your chips. Coast into the final 5 and start chopping when they tighten up--it's that simple.

[TheIceman05]

Actuary, Actuary, Actuary.....This is terrib-terrib-terrible.Sit and Gos are easy. Here are a few of your big mistakes1) Limping in the 15/30 round is for one purpose and one purpose ONLY! To see a cheap flop. Even then, if you're playing on Party (which you must be, if you've seen 2 flops and only have 660 in chips), you shouldn't be spending this many chips to limp to a flop.2) You're dominated every single time MP makes this raise out of position, no matter what your cards are. You. Are. Not. Ahead. Even if he has KQ, he's significantly more likely to have a hand that beats you. You know this, so fold, assclown. Do it.I like the fact that you're really trying to learn. Here are a few pieces of advice....1) Don't play party SNGs. They're terrible2) Never call a big raise with A4s. It's ahead 1/7 times, and when it is, it's impossible to play OOP. CheersIce

[AJAMBONE]

1) Don't play party SNGs. They're terrible2) Never call a big raise with A4s. It's ahead 1/7 times, and when it is, it's impossible to play OOP. Ice[/quote]Amen. If you are going to make your money playing SNG's please do so on Stars or UB even. Stars has slightly less traffic than Party, but still has plenty of Traffic + Fish to make a good buck playing exclusively SNG's, and their blind structure is head n shoulders above Party's.As for the hand...???????....what were you thinking, besides over thinking the situation? Just reading your reasoning made me think I was little mermaid swimming around with the fishies. I do not mean to berate you as I am sure at the time your logic made sense to you, but the harsh truth is that you sounded like every other fish that plays on Party.

[Abbaddabba]

When you have 20 big blinds in your stack, virtually every preflop move you make should be fold or all in. Especially at lower limits. Especially on party poker.This was a fold.You would not be getting exceptionally good implied odds with your stack relative to these blinds even if you did just limp preflop and there was no raise.

[MasterLJ]

Calling with a hand like A4 UTG or UTG+1 is just asking for someone to take your money.I've come to a point where I don't judge people at all for what they play pre-flop, but how they play it. If you are willing to pay 200 to see the flop with A4 clubs, then you should be raising to 200 pre-flop. I don't care if it's 27 or AA, if you are going to play it to a raise, you should be raising. Calling the all-in is a little silly. You're desperately behind Ax where x > 4 and you are about 40% to pocket pair lower than AA.Checking the flop is just God awful. If you are willing to call an all in, BE all-in. That way you could force out Ax and possibly lower pp (but probably not in a $10 SnG). Their chance of folding makes up for you being behind 40/60 in the BEST case, and the all-in on the flop is the best move on that flop given what you did. But again, you didn't raise pre-flop, so they probably won't believe you and may even call AK.All around bad moves.

[strategy]

Quote

Amen. If you are going to make your money playing SNG's please do so on Stars or UB even. Stars has slightly less traffic than Party, but still has plenty of Traffic + Fish to make a good buck playing exclusively SNG's, and their blind structure is head n shoulders above Party's.

I know a few people who make great money playing Party sit and gos. They're a frustrating experience, and the cash games make you wonder why anybody would WANT to play a sit and go on party, but it can be lucrative.My main concern with playing for anything over $50 is collusion--they don't even randomize the seats! It's very, very bad.

[TheIceman05]

strategy said:

Quote

Amen. If you are going to make your money playing SNG's please do so on Stars or UB even. Stars has slightly less traffic than Party, but still has plenty of Traffic + Fish to make a good buck playing exclusively SNG's, and their blind structure is head n shoulders above Party's.

I know a few people who make great money playing Party sit and gos. They're a frustrating experience, and the cash games make you wonder why anybody would WANT to play a sit and go on party, but it can be lucrative.My main concern with playing for anything over $50 is collusion--they don't even randomize the seats! It's very, very bad.

Their structures are just terrible.Ice

[thebolb33]

Don't be a dope. Fold preflop.

[potpumper43]

Party sit n goes are so easy to beat long term, just like their ring games.

[wontbez]

Actuary said:

well, lhe ain't gonig so well, so i'm trying to get some easier money.critique please.I make this play often.I had not played a hand yet..maybe limped once or twice.Can't get converter to work.***** Hand History for Game 2372163993 *****30/60 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 13978421)  - Sat Jul 16 05:45:00 EDT 2005Table Table  11062 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the buttonTotal number of players : 9Seat 1: co (565)Seat 2: button (630)Seat 3: sb (710)Seat 4: bb (1535)Seat 5: utg (1075)Seat 6: Actuary (660)Seat 7: utg+2 (850)Seat 8: mp  (195)Seat 9: mp+1 (1780)sb (15)bb  (30)** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Actuary [ Ac, 4c ]  utg folds.Actuary calls (30)utg+2 foldsmp calls (30)mp+1 raises (200) to 200co  folds.button folds.sb folds.bb folds.Actuary calls (170)mp folds.** Dealing Flop ** :  [ 8c, 8d, 2c ]  Actuary checks.mp+1 bets (460)Actuary calls (460)Actuary is all-In.** Dealing Turn ** :  [ 2h ]  ** Dealing River ** :  [ 3c ]  Creating Main Pot with $1395 with Actuary** Summary **Main Pot: 1395 |  Board: [ 8c 8d 2c 2h 3c  ]Preflop..I'm thinking at worst I'm getting 305 for 170.  However, I was playing for the implied odds.  I wouldnt overplay an Ace..without 2 pair.  No reads..nothing extraordinaryOn the flopI considered an all-in semi bluff, but figured he'd call if he had a made hand.  So this way, maybe he blufffs.  Then I called based on getting 2:1 on my $$$.  I had a 2nd and a 4th in the last 2 basically coasting, playing ulttra tight and wanted to try to get some chips and compete for 1st.{ side note.  I got 2nd earlier winning only 1 hand the whole tourney.  I entered a few pots but never saw the river.  Until we were down to 4 and I had 400 or so.  I tripled up..and then got 2nd. }

Patience and brilliance, you don’t want to be limping in from early position with hands like AX (even suited). Every time you find yourself in early position facing a raise after you’ve limped in with a bad hand, force yourself to fold, then donate $5 to goodwill or something as punishment for limping.

[Actuary]

So you all thought it was briallant, cool (sw)I cut my teeth on SnG's , so all of your advice was expected.I fold A3s all the time.I fold 80% of my handsI fold better hands than A3s to raises all the timeI was going to fold this one, but just wanted to gamble.If the flop sucked for me, I would've foldedI was getting even odds to call the flop all in 2:1 on a 2:1 drawI wanted all of his chips, so I didn't want to move all in..normally I would have...And...Not bragging ,but Pary SnG's are not that hard to recover from if I was left with 400 after folding he flop.Moving all in post-flop would be my normal play..(assuming I gambled like I did pre flop)..this time I chose to let him bluff at it, or get a free card.

[Dubey]

Actuary said:

So you all thought it was briallant, cool (sw)I cut my teeth on SnG's , so all of your advice was expected.I fold A3s all the time.I fold 80% of my handsI fold better hands than A3s to raises all the timeI was going to fold this one, but just wanted to gamble.If the flop sucked for me, I would've foldedI was getting even odds to call the flop all in 2:1 on a 2:1 drawI wanted all of his chips, so I didn't want to move all in..normally I would have...And...Not bragging ,but Pary SnG's are not that hard to recover from if I was left with 400 after folding he flop.Moving all in post-flop would be my normal play..(assuming I gambled like I did pre flop)..this time I chose to let him bluff at it, or get a free card.

you wanted him to bluff at it, even though his hand, if bluffing, is still better than your hand 90% of the time?ignore pot odds in situations like this, it isn't a cash game. the only odds that matter in this situation is that you got all of your money in with a 35% chance to win the pot. You justified your pf call by saying that you were comfortable coming back from 400 chips, if this is the case, fold the flop here, and wait to get your money in preflop with a pp or AK, at least then you're likely to have a coinflip, which is a hell of a lot better than this situation.

[strategy]

TheIceman05 said:

strategy said:

Quote

Amen.  If you are going to make your money playing SNG's please do so on Stars or UB even.  Stars has slightly less traffic than Party, but still has plenty of Traffic + Fish to make a good buck playing exclusively SNG's, and their blind structure is head n shoulders above Party's.

I know a few people who make great money playing Party sit and gos. They're a frustrating experience, and the cash games make you wonder why anybody would WANT to play a sit and go on party, but it can be lucrative.My main concern with playing for anything over $50 is collusion--they don't even randomize the seats! It's very, very bad.

Their structures are just terrible.Ice

Just because the structure is bad doesn't mean the better player can't make better decisions. Why would Gigabet be playing on party if he had no skill edge?

[TheIceman05]

strategy said:

Just because the structure is bad doesn't mean the better player can't make better decisions.  Why would Gigabet be playing on party if he had no skill edge?

I didn't say they aren't beatable.I'm saying you can find much MORE beatable SNGs. I play on a few sites, and I used to play SNGs all the time. YES, all SNGs are horribly easy to beat if you don't suck. But Party SNGs are a pain because of the structure. Makes it a BIT more of a crapshoot, and there's no way the increased luck-box-factor makes up for the slightly-higher-than-average number of craptasticalicious players. Most people play SNGs horribly anyway, so even "tougher" sites are close to being anti-pareto efficient."You done?"Yes. Soapbox is tough on my shin splints.Ice