30 replies to this topic

[Jordan]

Five handed 2/4 limit game at pokerroom.comI'm still cutting my teeth with my limit game and feel like I'm coming around.I'm playing at a pretty poor table. Only one good player there, the rest are calling stations and cannot fold 2nd/3rd pair.I'm in the BB with Q 7 UTG raises, he was the only good player there (but was making mistakes this session it seemed). All call to me, I throw in the extra two.5 to the flopFLOP: 7 2 5 (10sb)sb checks, hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, button bets, sb folds, hero calls, utg fold, CO foldTURN: 8 (6bb)hero checks, button bets, hero raises, button 3 bets, hero callsRIVER: 3 (12bb)hero checks, button bets, hero....Button was a bad player. I went for the check/raise on the turn cause she was on auto-bet and I thought my hand was best. The 3-bet was unexpected. I didn't like the river but felt I had to call down with the size of the pot + poor player.I didn't raise the flop cause I wanted to see where I was at with the preflop raiser. He obviously didn't have any big hearts or he probably would have bet the flop or raised. He wasn't much for calling. I thought about raising the flop bet, but wanted to be able to c/r on the turn if it wasn't a heart. I probably would have folded the turn had it been a heart Thoughts?- Jordan

[Smasharoo]

Quote

I'm on the button with Q Suit: Club 7 Suit: Spade.........Button was a bad player.

Yeah.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

Perfect situation for checkraising the button on the flop. Everyone behind you has to call 2 now instead of one to see that BS heart or overcard fall off. And it puts fear in your opponents' hearts. Literally.

[Jordan]

I mistyped. I edited though quickly. I was in the big blind. Sorry for type 'o'- Jordan

[Smasharoo]

This turn raise is horrible.Raise the flop if anything.

[Jordan]

I understand raising the flop to make it hard for the preflop raiser to call if he has a big heart, but what's wrong with check/raising the turn?Raise the flop and lead the turn? I'm just doing this to avoid being sucked out on, right? I know I have the best hand, well, I'm very certain I do. The 3 bet on the turn was odd, and did slow me down. Well, these players were bad and weren't folding for anything. I figured if button was going to bet whatever she had, I was going to be raising with the best hand.But tell me though, if I'm leading the turn, and she calls, do you still lead the river and fold to a raise, or check/call it. But like I said, her 3 bet was odd and really threw me off.- Jordan

[wannabe]

Jordan said:

Five handed 2/4 limit game at pokerroom.comI'm still cutting my teeth with my limit game and feel like I'm coming around.I'm playing at a pretty poor table. Only one good player there, the rest are calling stations and cannot fold 2nd/3rd pair.I'm in the BB with Q 7  UTG raises, he was the only good player there (but was making mistakes this session it seemed). All call to me, I throw in the extra two.5 to the flopFLOP: 7 2 5  (10sb)sb checks, hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, button bets, sb folds, hero calls, utg fold, CO foldTURN: 8  (6bb)hero checks, button bets, hero raises, button 3 bets, hero callsRIVER: 3  (12bb)hero checks, button bets, hero....Button was a bad player. I went for the check/raise on the turn cause she was on auto-bet and I thought my hand was best. The 3-bet was unexpected. I didn't like the river but felt I had to call down with the size of the pot + poor player.I didn't raise the flop cause I wanted to see where I was at with the preflop raiser. He obviously didn't have any big hearts or he probably would have bet the flop or raised. He wasn't much for calling. I thought about raising the flop bet, but wanted to be able to c/r on the turn if it wasn't a heart. I probably would have folded the turn had it been a heart  Thoughts?- Jordan

where to start... there are so many mistakes made here, I don't think I can even begin.. bad preflop call. check raise the flop to eliminate as much competition as possible. Lead the turn... check/fold the river.

[Jordan]

wannabe said:

where to start... there are so many mistakes made here, I don't think I can even begin..  bad preflop call.  check raise the flop to eliminate as much competition as possible.  Lead the turn... check/fold the river.

Well, I'd normally fold here, but decided to "gamble" and try to hit a flop. I'm usually only calling an EP raise in the BB with suitedness, or connectedness.I understand the c/r on the flop, really I do, and about 9/10 I do this, but the button was spewing chips. Perhaps it's hard to understand being no one was there but me. Ugh.I also understand leading the turn, but I thought I was best and wanted her to bet so I could raise and get more out of her. Granted, I was three bet, but I was going with what I thought.Do you check fold the river in a $50+ pot always? That was more my concern. Do I have to call down the river with so much in there? Smash? You are one to say dont' fold big pots right? I've been folding in small junk pots some and doing fine, this was one of the first big pots I had a tough decision...Please listen. This player was on her second buy in and playing horrid.- Jordan

[wannabe]

We all understand chip spewers... this is how we make money in the game of holdem. However, don't fall into the trap of calling just to catch cards and make them pay... rather, sit back and wait for your hands, and make the player pay every tenth hand... or whenever you hit. You have to remember top pair isn't always good, especially when its only 7's. A lot of players get aggravated at a constant raiser... and say to themselves, "he has won the last 3, Ive got to win this one" as opposed to just slowly sucking them dry. They aren't going anywhere usually, and just be patient, and capitalize when the moment is right.It looks to me like if this player is even halfway decent, they have AA or KK w/ the heart, or AK w/ A hearts, or maybe even made their flush already.

[Rocketwadster]

I think your problems started pre-flop. Horrible hand, and sure you have a big pot brewing with all those callers, but man those cards suck. :wink:

[Jordan]

wannabe said:

We all understand chip spewers... this is how we make money in the game of holdem.  However, don't fall into the trap of  calling just to catch cards and make them pay... rather, sit back and wait for your hands, and make the player pay every tenth hand... or whenever you hit.  You have to remember top pair isn't always good, especially when its only 7's.  A lot of players get aggravated at a constant raiser... and say to themselves, "he has won the last 3, Ive got to win this one"  as opposed to just slowly sucking them dry.  They aren't going anywhere usually, and just be patient, and capitalize when the moment is right.It looks to me like if this player is even halfway decent, they have AA or KK w/ the heart, or AK w/ A hearts, or maybe even made their flush already.

k. I need to stop posting my hands in strat maybe.I wasn't aggravated. I really thought I had the best hand, post flop. So far in short handed play, my post flop play has been really good. I probably have been taking a few too many flops with sub-par hands, but that's cause I'm raising too many hands from the CO/button.However, I hate calling in a SH game. I'm normally the raiser, or re/raiser and go from there. I personally think cold calling anything in a SH game is a leak, but can we look past a preflop "blunder". OK.I really don't wanna say what the button had yet...but how many of you call down here on the river in a pot of this size?Keep in mind, you are thinking like I am. The button is spewing chips. She could have bottom pair, or 2nd pair. The 3 bet on the turn is scary, but this person is tilting. Do we still call down on a bad river?I had been a no limit player and this was my first really tough decision to make on the river, so I thought it as worth the post. Maybe I'm wrong. Cause when I looked at the pot, I decided I had to call and go with "my read" that I did have the best hand. Maybe she outdrew me this time, maybe not. Either way I was calling $4 to win over $50 and if I did lose I gained information and learned how bad my read was...bleh.- Jordanthis actually was one of my most patient short handed sessions...to be honest...i really didn't play too many hands..which sucked..but was neccesary.

[Jordan]

wannabe said:

We all understand chip spewers... this is how we make money in the game of holdem.  However, don't fall into the trap of  calling just to catch cards and make them pay... rather, sit back and wait for your hands, and make the player pay every tenth hand... or whenever you hit.  You have to remember top pair isn't always good, especially when its only 7's.  A lot of players get aggravated at a constant raiser... and say to themselves, "he has won the last 3, Ive got to win this one"  as opposed to just slowly sucking them dry.  They aren't going anywhere usually, and just be patient, and capitalize when the moment is right.It looks to me like if this player is even halfway decent, they have AA or KK w/ the heart, or AK w/ A hearts, or maybe even made their flush already.

Although a horrid player. She would have 3 bet these type hands preflop. I then would have folded. However, I chose to end the betting and call $2 more from the BB with a very avg. hand.A x is possible though. And was what I was figuring on the turn. Still though, I felt compelled to call the river.- Jordan

[wannabe]

well, pot odds tell you to call this everytime, as you only have to be correct 1 in 12.5 times to make this a profitable call... therefore, easy call on the river, but still very poorly played hand, as Q7 is probably one of the 20 worst starting hands in holdem... not really but...

[BeanGW]

I wouldn't dream of checkraising this flop from the BB when the UTG player is the PF raiser (On the flop you should be focusing more on the UTG preflop raiser and less on the auto-bet button... UTG raised PF, you gotta give him the chance to raise you and push out naked mid to low hearts) and thin this field. In any case, we have to fold to a raise here if there's any significant action.Otherwise, when we check/raise, all we do is suck all 4 villains in when they all call the UTG's first bet, and then our bet.In this case, UTG bailed on us on the flop, so it wouldn't have worked, but generally that's the reason why we don't checkraise this flop.Here's my line. Please note that I'm only being even this aggressive because it's only 5 handed, otherwise I'd check/fold the flop so fast yr head would spin. Heck I'd even OpenFarrell on occasion [ok, maybe not]Fold PF... Bet/fold the flop. Bet/fold the turn Check/fold the river

[Jordan]

wannabe said:

well, pot odds tell you to call this everytime, as you only have to be correct 1 in 12.5 times to make this a profitable call... therefore, easy call on the river, but still very poorly played hand, as Q7 is probably one of the 20 worst starting hands in holdem... not really but...

Maybe I'm dumb, but seriously, I know Q7 sucks preflop.Let's get over that, and move on to post flop play.Personally, I'm more concerned about post flop play than preflop play. I normally make good decisions preflop, this was probably the only time I've ever called a raise from the BB with Q7o. I mainly did this cause my table was so bad.Sparring reads, yes bad played hand. With the thoughts I had is it still bad? I have to disagree.I'm getting extra bets in on the turn when I think I have the best hand and c/r her. When she 3 bets me, what now? I'm either wrong or I'm right. I obviously can't old, but still, I'm raising a turn like this against this player every time. I don't see how this is a bad play against a horrid player.If I lead here and she has nothing, she most likely is folding. Same thing if I raise the flop and lead the turn and she has nothing. She's folding. But when I'm check/raising her because I believe I have the best hand, I'm getting more bets in.Atleast, this is how my limit mind was working with this hand.- Jordan

[Rocketwadster]

Make better pre-flop decisions, and the post-flop decisions become much easier...lol :wink:

[Jordan]

BeanGW said:

I wouldn't dream of checkraising this flop from the BB when the UTG player is the PF raiser (On the flop you should be focusing more on the UTG preflop raiser and less on the auto-bet button... UTG raised PF, you gotta give him the chance to raise you and push out naked mid to low hearts) and thin this field.  In any case, we have to fold to a raise here if there's any significant action.Otherwise, when we check/raise, all we do is suck all 4 villains in when they all call the UTG's first bet, and then our bet.In this case, UTG bailed on us on the flop, so it wouldn't have worked, but generally that's the reason why we don't checkraise this flop.Here's my line.   Please note that I'm only being even this aggressive because it's only 5 handed, otherwise I'd check/fold the flop so fast yr head would spin.  Heck I'd even OpenFarrell on occasion [ok, maybe not]Fold PF...  Bet/fold the flop.  Bet/fold the turn  Check/fold the river

That's what I was thinking with my UTG man. I wanted to see if he'd raise. If he would have raised, I woulda had him on a big heart. Maybe an over pair. But he dropped, so I moved on.Why are you bet folding the turn? Because we fear a flopped flush or overpair?Why check/fold the river in such a big pot? Yea it's a scare card, and I was very close to folding, but I felt compelled to call with the big pot. Sucked out or not, I wasn't letting it go this time.Yes, I'm very agg. 5 handed, espicially when I think I have the lead. That's why I c/r on the turn.Now, I said I think cold/calling anything in a short handed game is a leak, unless you are doing it for a reason...but that's my own thought.- Jordan

[Jordan]

Rocketwadster said:

Make better pre-flop decisions, and the post-flop decisions become much easier...lol :wink:

Post flop was pretty simple actually with the said opponent.Had UTG jumped in I probably would have dropped it on the flop/turn. But with the button is a different story.- Jordan

[BeanGW]

Jordan said:

Why are you bet folding the turn? Because we fear a flopped flush or overpair?To be honest, I'd really want to see how things panned out after the flop bet before I made up my mind on the turn. I would fear the made flush. Even more so if I was just called somewhere, and then raised on the turn (which is basically what happens here). In that case I would be even more afraid of a made flush. I know the button is crazy here, but the button could have called with anything, and that's exactly the sort of hand that's got me beat here.Why check/fold the river in such a big pot? Yea it's a scare card, and I was very close to folding, but I felt compelled to call with the big pot. Sucked out or not, I wasn't letting it go this time.Meh, if you prefer a check/call line I suppose that's OK. But, from your description of the Button, you gotta figure if she had two big cards she's probably playing them more aggressively reraising Preflop. So it's more likely that she's got a sneakier sort of hand, and from the turn play I'd be pretty sure she's got you beat before the river.

[Jordan]

I'll post results.button showed 10 9 So she picked up a OESD on the turn and 3 bet me. So I was right in this instance and I think got the most (and more) outta the hand. I don't mind playing extra aggressive against horrid opponents with top pair, even on a 3 flush board. Yes, the 3 bet was scary and not expected, but still, as I've said. On the turn I did the c/r for a reason and purpose. To get more money out of her. Why? Because I thought my hand was best. And I was right, so that was great. Granted she had outs to win the hand, I was pushing my edge.I was just posting this to get a few thoughts on how many people call the river and if you even have to think about it, being such a big pot.I was extra thrilled to be right about my read and lucky enough to avoid a suckout.I don't feel I need to defend my play, as I'm very confident while I'm playing...but as you all said, "poorly played hand"...well I don't do this against a solid type player. She really was spewing, perhaps more than you can understand.Meh, but 10-9c 3 betting that turn...maybe now you understand why I was checkraising the turn and not the flop against said opponent. If not, ok...I just can't change my style of play against these type players. I make preflop mistakes sometimes, but I try my best to improve my post flop play. Post kinda got off topic..as I just wanted to see how many people insta-call that river...cuz it did take me longer than a few seconds...and in a No limit game I would have had to fold.- Jordan