interesting 98o hand

[idiotbocs 0]

CO is loose/bad.SB is decent, but not tight or aggressive enough.BB is pretty solid.5/10 (6 handed)I get 9 ,8 on the button.It's folded to the CO who open limps, I limp on the button, SB completes, BB raises, we all call.flop is 2 ,3 ,6 (8sb)SB checks, BB bets, CO folds, I call, SB folds.turn is the 7 (5BB)BB bets, I raise...preflop, flop, and turn all in question...

[zimmer4141 0]

How I would play, I would probably either make a positional raise preflop, or fold. Taking the path you took by limping, I would fold on the flop. There is no reason to call there. The BB could have an overpair, to which you are nearly drawing dead. Even if you pair up on the turn, you don't know if you have the best hand.

[econ_tim 0]

I'd consider isolating CO preflop if he sux and can fold. Can you put him on a good enough range of open limping hands to know what cards scare him?What do you think on the flop? That BB has a 6 or wose so your overs are good? Would raising be better?Turn looks good for semi-bluff. The BB might not like the 7 and you have plenty of outs now.

[BeanGW 0]

If yr not folding that pf cauz the CO is loose, I can see that. You've got position and you know what yr doing post flop.But why not fold this on the flop?

[idiotbocs 0]

ill give my thoughts throughout the hand.preflop: CO is bad, he open limps. I will limp behind with a ton of garbage. Q4s, K8o, 98o...I don't think my hand is strong enough to isolate, but it's definately worth playing against a bad player.flop: BB (a thinking player) just seen an open limp from a poor player and two decent players not try and isolate. Obviously, we have shitty hands. I thought he would raise a little light from the BB. So, I figured I would peel getting 9-1 with up to 6 clean outs and a BD draw. Also, a 7 or other 4 straight could win me the pot by raising (i.e. the semi-bluff).Turn: I thought maybe he will fold a better hand 1 in 4 times.

[Smasharoo 0]

I don't think my hand is strong enough to isolate, but it's definately worth playing against a bad player. Maybe.Against a bad player and the blinds? No.

[idiotbocs 0]

i have position on the blinds.

[Smasharoo 0]

i have position on the blinds.Realy? On the button?You really have surpassed me in LHE knowledge.Still a fold or a raise pre-flop.

[idiotbocs 0]

When bad players limp in front of you, you should want to play with them. Say you have a hand like K4s, and two bad players limp in. You should WANT to play. Your hand has no advantage over theirs at this point. But after the flop, you will make good decisions, and they will make terrible ones. Your hand isn't good, but it is good enough.Now you may decide not to play K4s even though you WANT to play. You might not play because you are in middle position, and the chance someone will pick up a big hand behind you is too high. You might not play because there are strong players behind you who can really interfere with your goal of playing against weak players and weak hands. But you should WANT to play. If you are on the button, then you SHOULD play because there's no one behind you to screw with your plans.

[Smasharoo 0]

Yeah K4s isn't 98o.Do you see why?Do you also see how you didn't end up playing with the weak player?I like the turn raise, but the fact that the hand happened to work out ok semi-ok doesn't make this pre-flop limp any better or anywhere near +EV.

[idiotbocs 0]

Yeah K4s isn't 98o.Do you see why?

of coarse. But it's still "good enough". Do you see why?ill give you a hint:

Your hand has no advantage over theirs at this point.

[econ_tim 0]

Yeah K4s isn't 98o.Do you see why?Do you also see how you didn't end up playing with the weak player?I like the turn raise, but the fact that the hand happened to work out ok semi-ok doesn't make this pre-flop limp any better or anywhere near +EV.

Drawing from my limited knowledge, it seems that 980 is almost K4s. JTo would be good enough certainly, and T90 is probably about equivalent to K4s.K4s has high card strength and suitedness, while 980 has connectedness, but 9 isn't a great high card.

[Smasharoo 0]

of coarse. But it's still "good enough"It's not.Sorry.

[Smasharoo 0]

and T90 is probably about equivalent to K4sNo.

[idiotbocs 0]

why are we talking about high card strength?98o and K4s both have neutral EV. We know what this means, right?He who plays best postflop wins.Smash, tell me you would play K4s...but you wouldn't raise, right?What's the difference? its not much.this is far from a raise or fold situation. I think there are a lot of viable options throughout this hand.folding wouldn't be bad...but there's value in playing, imo.

[econ_tim 0]

All right, I delved into my top secret database of 1,446 hands.I've been dealt 98o 14 times and my BB/hand with it is 0.005.I've been dealt K4s 2 times and my BB/hand is 0.Ergo, 98o >> K4s.(sw)

[idiotbocs 0]

nice

[Smasharoo 0]

Smash, tell me you would play K4s...but you wouldn't raise, right?What's the difference? its not much. I think the diffrence is a lot more than you do, aparently.If you're going to limp with 89o here, you might as well limp with any two cards. You could make the argument you're making for any two cards on the button, which isn't what Ed was saying at all. He was saying marginal hands that have value heads up make sense to play if there's a reasonable expectation you might isolate a weaker player with position. Because you can outplay him postflop. Your hand is worse than marginal heads up. It's worse than most random hands the BB will hold.

[Smasharoo 0]

All right, I delved into my top secret database of 1,446 hands.I've been dealt 98o 14 times and my BB/hand with it is 0.005.I've been dealt K4s 2 times and my BB/hand is 0.Ergo, 98o >> K4s. Haha.I stand corrected! :)Now that we've settled that, why are you calling the flop?

[idiotbocs 0]

worse than most random hands BB will have

not true. The equity is about even. 51.3% or something. www.pokerstove.com82o has a 31% equity...obviously, im not limping. My arguement would be flawed if I said any two cards will do.i believe 98o is ok because I have neutral ev and better postflop skills.Also, Ed Miller never said anything about raising. He's talking about limping, not isolating. Isolating with K4s wouldn't be very smart, imo.

[idiotbocs 0]

yeah...what do you think about the flop call?im not even closing the action, but the pot is pretty large.

[Smasharoo 0]

Also, Ed Miller never said anything about raising. He's talking about limping, not isolating. Isolating with K4s wouldn't be very smart, imo.Who said to raise with K4s?Whatever. The problem with limping with 98o here is that what happened in this hand is going to happen fairly often, the BB is going to see it as weakness, raise, and you're in for two with 98s, heads up with the good player with the bad one who you wanted to play against not in the hand.That'll happen with K4s, also, but it'll much easier to play postflop most of the time.I'm going to assume that you're making this play 1 in 1000 hands anyway and it really doesn't matter.Tell me about the flop call.

[monoatomic 0]

It's interesting that you would pull a hand like this out.I have done the exact same thing in the same position. The only difference is that instead of 98o I usually stick with FaceX cards. K7, Q8, J7 and so forth.The problem with this hand is once you limp in preflop, if you get a favorable flop then you can continue, if you don't get a favorable flop you get out. In this case the flop is semi-good for you so it makes it that much harder to play. No over cards to you and you have a BD draw.The turn I just don't know. I like the raise if you think it's going to take the pot down right there, or if a high card doesn't hit the river you can take away AK AQ KQ KJ hands. I like what you are trying to do in the hand, but you still just have 9 high. The other problem is that now you are almost tied to the hand. You are more inclined to see the river even if it's 3bet to you. Then it's a fold line if your straight or 9 or 8 doesn't come through.So, I like the idea that you are trying to do, but I think this might be a bad execution of said idea.

[Smasharoo 0]

I might raise this flop and I might fold.I'm not sure about calling.How capable of letting overcards go on the turn if we raise the flop is BB here?

[idiotbocs 0]

I might raise this flop and I might fold.I'm not sure about calling.How capable of letting overcards go on the turn if we raise the flop is BB here?

definate possibility. He 3-bets big hands and will call a raise and check/fold the turn with overs most of the time. It's possible he puts me on a flush draw and calls the turn, but I think he is folding frequently.Why do you think peeling on the flop is bad? I think you could convince me that raising is > calling...but I think calling is > folding.not positive, though.