29 replies to this topic

[idiotbocs]

CO is loose/bad.SB is decent, but not tight or aggressive enough.BB is pretty solid.5/10 (6 handed)I get 9 ,8 on the button.It's folded to the CO who open limps, I limp on the button, SB completes, BB raises, we all call.flop is 2 ,3 ,6 (8sb)SB checks, BB bets, CO folds, I call, SB folds.turn is the 7 (5BB)BB bets, I raise...preflop, flop, and turn all in question...

[zimmer4141]

How I would play, I would probably either make a positional raise preflop, or fold. Taking the path you took by limping, I would fold on the flop. There is no reason to call there. The BB could have an overpair, to which you are nearly drawing dead. Even if you pair up on the turn, you don't know if you have the best hand.

[econ_tim]

I'd consider isolating CO preflop if he sux and can fold. Can you put him on a good enough range of open limping hands to know what cards scare him?What do you think on the flop? That BB has a 6 or wose so your overs are good? Would raising be better?Turn looks good for semi-bluff. The BB might not like the 7 and you have plenty of outs now.

[BeanGW]

If yr not folding that pf cauz the CO is loose, I can see that. You've got position and you know what yr doing post flop.But why not fold this on the flop?

[idiotbocs]

ill give my thoughts throughout the hand.preflop: CO is bad, he open limps. I will limp behind with a ton of garbage. Q4s, K8o, 98o...I don't think my hand is strong enough to isolate, but it's definately worth playing against a bad player.flop: BB (a thinking player) just seen an open limp from a poor player and two decent players not try and isolate. Obviously, we have shitty hands. I thought he would raise a little light from the BB. So, I figured I would peel getting 9-1 with up to 6 clean outs and a BD draw. Also, a 7 or other 4 straight could win me the pot by raising (i.e. the semi-bluff).Turn: I thought maybe he will fold a better hand 1 in 4 times.

[Smasharoo]

I don't think my hand is strong enough to isolate, but it's definately worth playing against a bad player. Maybe.Against a bad player and the blinds? No.

[idiotbocs]

i have position on the blinds.

[Smasharoo]

i have position on the blinds.Realy? On the button?You really have surpassed me in LHE knowledge.Still a fold or a raise pre-flop.

[idiotbocs]

Ed Miller said:

When bad players limp in front of you, you should want to play with them. Say you have a hand like K4s, and two bad players limp in. You should WANT to play. Your hand has no advantage over theirs at this point. But after the flop, you will make good decisions, and they will make terrible ones. Your hand isn't good, but it is good enough.Now you may decide not to play K4s even though you WANT to play. You might not play because you are in middle position, and the chance someone will pick up a big hand behind you is too high. You might not play because there are strong players behind you who can really interfere with your goal of playing against weak players and weak hands. But you should WANT to play. If you are on the button, then you SHOULD play because there's no one behind you to screw with your plans.

[Smasharoo]

Yeah K4s isn't 98o.Do you see why?Do you also see how you didn't end up playing with the weak player?I like the turn raise, but the fact that the hand happened to work out ok semi-ok doesn't make this pre-flop limp any better or anywhere near +EV.

[idiotbocs]

Smasharoo said:

Yeah K4s isn't 98o.Do you see why?

of coarse. But it's still "good enough". Do you see why?ill give you a hint:

Ed Miller said:

Your hand has no advantage over theirs at this point.

[econ_tim]

Smasharoo said:

Yeah K4s isn't 98o.Do you see why?Do you also see how you didn't end up playing with the weak player?I like the turn raise, but the fact that the hand happened to work out ok semi-ok doesn't make this pre-flop limp any better or anywhere near +EV.

Drawing from my limited knowledge, it seems that 980 is almost K4s. JTo would be good enough certainly, and T90 is probably about equivalent to K4s.K4s has high card strength and suitedness, while 980 has connectedness, but 9 isn't a great high card.

[Smasharoo]

of coarse. But it's still "good enough"It's not.Sorry.

[Smasharoo]

and T90 is probably about equivalent to K4sNo.

[idiotbocs]

why are we talking about high card strength?98o and K4s both have neutral EV. We know what this means, right?He who plays best postflop wins.Smash, tell me you would play K4s...but you wouldn't raise, right?What's the difference? its not much.this is far from a raise or fold situation. I think there are a lot of viable options throughout this hand.folding wouldn't be bad...but there's value in playing, imo.

[econ_tim]

All right, I delved into my top secret database of 1,446 hands.I've been dealt 98o 14 times and my BB/hand with it is 0.005.I've been dealt K4s 2 times and my BB/hand is 0.Ergo, 98o >> K4s.(sw)

[idiotbocs]

nice

[Smasharoo]

Smash, tell me you would play K4s...but you wouldn't raise, right?What's the difference? its not much. I think the diffrence is a lot more than you do, aparently.If you're going to limp with 89o here, you might as well limp with any two cards. You could make the argument you're making for any two cards on the button, which isn't what Ed was saying at all. He was saying marginal hands that have value heads up make sense to play if there's a reasonable expectation you might isolate a weaker player with position. Because you can outplay him postflop. Your hand is worse than marginal heads up. It's worse than most random hands the BB will hold.

[Smasharoo]

All right, I delved into my top secret database of 1,446 hands.I've been dealt 98o 14 times and my BB/hand with it is 0.005.I've been dealt K4s 2 times and my BB/hand is 0.Ergo, 98o >> K4s. Haha.I stand corrected! :)Now that we've settled that, why are you calling the flop?

[idiotbocs]

Quote

worse than most random hands BB will have

not true. The equity is about even. 51.3% or something. www.pokerstove.com82o has a 31% equity...obviously, im not limping. My arguement would be flawed if I said any two cards will do.i believe 98o is ok because I have neutral ev and better postflop skills.Also, Ed Miller never said anything about raising. He's talking about limping, not isolating. Isolating with K4s wouldn't be very smart, imo.