33 replies to this topic

[steve7stud]

The 10-20 no limit at Commerce is usually pretty juicy. There's a mix of poker talent in there. Ironically, there are tons of fish with quite a few tells. My general style of play is loose aggressive. I like to see a lot of flops. This isn't because I'm an action junky. When I sit down, I feel like I have an edge, so I'm not sitting and waiting for premium hands most of the time. I will often make small raises whether I have a great hand or a playable hand. It obviously becomes difficult for an opponent to figure out which I have if I'm raising the same amount each time. And doing it often. Frankly, it can become annoying and put certain people on tilt. Not a bad thing. If and when I get called, it's easier for me to figure out a range of hands that my opponent might have. For example: If I make it $40-50 (total) with 78 suited my opponent will probably call me with Ace 10. He would've like to have raised, but I took the play away from him. And Ace 10 isn't quite a strong enough hand to come over the top of me. So, we take the flop. Any way you slice it, I'm betting. I don't care if 3 Aces show up. The key to my style is my post flop play. Most people play pretty straight forward which makes it easier on me.Hands: me-2nd position:56 suited opponent-4th postion??I raise it up to $60 (it wa a tight table), and he called. Everyone else folded.Flop:5, Ace, 3me:$75opponent:callsNow obviously, I would have been happy to have picked up the pot right there. But this guy, wasn't the brightest player in the world. I knew that he had an Ace, and I knew that he FEARED that I had an Ace as well. Turn:5me:$130opponent:callsWhen I made the bet I told the guy that if he didn't hit his kicker on the river, I might just win this pot. This frazzled him a little bit, and he called.river:Jackme:$45opponent: raise $320Result: I moved all in and busted him. Obviously he had Ace Jack which was about what I put him on. By coming in for a raise with my 56 suited, I took control of the hand. And I was able to dictate the action. Was I lucky to hit the 5 on the turn? Of course, but I maximized the profits as well. A hand like that is designed to do exactly what it did. Break a player. It won't always work. The key is to know when to get away from the hand AFTER the flop. Summary: 10-20 no limit is all about post flop play and reading your opponents. Disclaimer: This is what works for me at these limits. It won't work for everyone, and as limit increase or decrease, so should your playing style. Please play responsibly. Do not try this at home, online, or in a casino. Good Luck.

[Petoria]

Good post, this is exactly the kind of thing i have trouble with in NL. The way i play, i exploit big edges preflop, and hope that my hand holds up. Basically waiting for my overpair to take out someone overplaying another hand.That's a good story, it inspired me to work on that aspect of my game.

[HoosierAlum]

What is your play if you blank on the turn? Check-fold? Possibly a check-raise?

[PrtyPSux]

great first strat post, I have a few questions though.I used to only play NL so I feel its my strongest game (although I wish it were limit) but I think one of my leaks (especially before I went broke) was that I played too loose agressive and the turn play seemed to give me the most trouble. For instance, I probably would have played the hand the exact same way (knowing that my opponents have me pegged as LAG) but If I missed the turn I would bet the pot again. My question is what you would do if you missed the turn? If you check the turn, wouldn't that make you look weak? and invite people to come over the top of your continuation bets on the flop now? Also, on a side note, how much emphazis do you put on physicall tells? Ive heard pros say that they're HUGE and some (like DN) say that physical tells are a myth and hardly even important.Thanks

[steve7stud]

HoosierAlum said:

What is your play if you blank on the turn? Check-fold? Possibly a check-raise?

I knew that question was coming. I put the guy on Ace Jack, Ace 10, or Ace 9. If a King or Queen comes I would bet, 5 or 6 I bet as well. Even if a 2 or 4 came, I would consider betting trying to represent a a straight. But I wouldn't have loved it. 8,9,10,Jack comes, I check and lay it down after he bets. He would never make a bet that would be small enough for me to call if he hit anyway. But, the implied odds I was getting with a lot of the other scenarios is pretty great.Again, this is how I played that hand. There's always several ways to play a hand. One being, I could've laid the hand down to begin with. But that's just not my style, at least not in that game at that time.

[steve7stud]

"Also, on a side note, how much emphazis do you put on physicall tells?"A lot. I've spent quite a but of time studying human behavior. Spotting tells, weaknesses, and reading players is one my biggest strengths. I still need to learn to trust my gut a little bit more. I'm pretty sure that Daniel feels that spotting physical tells in others is an important arsenal in his game as well. He will often try and get weaker players to talk, to reveal the strength of their hand. I know he did with me when we played together, lol. And I actually asked him if he was trying to pick up a tell, or if he really wanted me to answer the question honestly.

[PrtyPSux]

Petoria said:

Good post, this is exactly the kind of thing i have trouble with in NL. The way i play, i exploit big edges preflop, and hope that my hand holds up. Basically waiting for my overpair to take out someone overplaying another hand.That's a good story, it inspired me to work on that aspect of my game.

see, IMO, the levels we play at, preflop might be more or at least as important as postflop, you get a hand and raise you get 4 callers miss the flop and fold, its easy and there is not much room for outplaying (especially in a ring game). What I used to do (with pretty good outcomes) was look for the tightest 6max $50NL table I can find; one with maybe 1 or 2 dollar avg pots..Id go in and probably bust or double up on a bluff within the first 10 minutes after they saw that, I would play super agressive. The catch is that when u raise with 97s and the flop comes 773 or sumthin, and u bet out like u usually do you'll get reraised then you can call and bust the other dude. Likewise when the flop comes 82A and u bet out and they reraise, you can just fold. The swings are huge with this style and even more so in low limits, but it is profitable.

[RISEorFall]

I like the hand up until the turn. Then I don't like it at all. With you hitting another 5, you don't want to scare him out of the pot. Saying something about his kicker isn't the best way to get him to stay in the hand. What happens if he misses his kicker and you bet the river? If you scared him, he folds. If you didn't say anything, you could check and let him think his AJ is good. When I hit a hand against a guy and have him drawing to about 2 outs, I don't want to scare him. And not to sound like an ass, but hands like this aren't why you play suited connectors. I could've hit trip 5's here with 5-2 offsuit. You play them for straights and flushes mainly, and the random trips/2 pair. I'm positive you know that, and I know you didn't mean you play these hands to try and hit trips, but that's the way it came off to me and I didn't want anyone else to take it that way. Also, not to sound like even more of an ass, but I also think it's pretty easy to read someone when i have trips. And another thing (sorry, they keep popping into mind): While I do like the theory of varying your raising hands to keep people guessing as to what you have, raising with small suited connectors can't be making money in the long run. Getting these hands heads up or 3 way isn't good for them. If you bet out everyone on the flop or turn, it doesn't really matter which two cards you have. I don't think you'll be able to show these hands down often enough for it to have any immediate impact on your table image.

[PrtyPSux]

steve7stud said:

"Also, on a side note, how much emphazis do you put on physicall tells?"A lot. I've spent quite a but of time studying human behavior. Spotting tells, weaknesses, and reading players is one my biggest strengths. I still need to learn to trust my gut a little bit more. I'm pretty sure that Daniel feels that spotting physical tells in others is an important arsenal in his game as well. He will often try and get weaker players to talk, to reveal the strength of their hand. I know he did with me when we played together, lol. And I actually asked him if he was trying to pick up a tell, or if he really wanted me to answer the question honestly.

arent physical tells too easy to missinterpret though? in other words how can you tell wether or not he's holding his breath because he's bluffing or because he has a hand? wouldn't betting patterns and hand ranges be much safer reads?ps what have you been doing to study human behavior? any books or recommendations?

[steve7stud]

So here's the thing. The style that I'm talking about probably is NOT the correct style of play for lower buy in no limit hold em. It's designed for deep stack play, and post flop play. I fear that some people might get the wrong idea from my post. I was serious when I said don't try this at certain limits. Brett has yelled at me several times when I joke around in online play. I just don't think that the styles work very well, at least not at lower limits. For a lower limit game, I would venture to say that tight is right. But I'd really have to sit down and start playing a bit if I was to know for sure.

[allinbluff35]

RISEorFall said:

I like the hand up until the turn. Then I don't like it at all. With you hitting another 5, you don't want to scare him out of the pot. Saying something about his kicker isn't the best way to get him to stay in the hand. What happens if he misses his kicker and you bet the river? If you scared him, he folds. If you didn't say anything, you could check and let him think his AJ is good. When I hit a hand against a guy and have him drawing to about 2 outs, I don't want to scare him. And not to sound like an ass, but hands like this aren't why you play suited connectors. I could've hit trip 5's here with 5-2 offsuit. You play them for straights and flushes mainly, and the random trips/2 pair. I'm positive you know that, and I know you didn't mean you play these hands to try and hit trips, but that's the way it came off to me and I didn't want anyone else to take it that way. Also, not to sound like even more of an ass, but I also think it's pretty easy to read someone when i have trips. And another thing (sorry, they keep popping into mind): While I do like the theory of varying your raising hands to keep people guessing as to what you have, raising with small suited connectors can't be making money in the long run. Getting these hands heads up or 3 way isn't good for them. If you bet out everyone on the flop or turn, it doesn't really matter which two cards you have. I don't think you'll be able to show these hands down often enough for it to have any immediate impact on your table image.

these are the nut peddling responses i'm talking about. Play a deep stacked(<100bb) NLHE game above 5/10 and you might start to comprehend this.

[PrtyPSux]

RISEorFall said:

I like the hand up until the turn. Then I don't like it at all. With you hitting another 5, you don't want to scare him out of the pot. Saying something about his kicker isn't the best way to get him to stay in the hand. What happens if he misses his kicker and you bet the river? If you scared him, he folds. If you didn't say anything, you could check and let him think his AJ is good. When I hit a hand against a guy and have him drawing to about 2 outs, I don't want to scare him.

He read him for an Ace decent kicker, and probably knew he wouldnt be folding it (at least not on the turn). I might agree with you on the talking part, but then again saying stuff like that is what might make them think you're bluffing.

Quote

And not to sound like an ass, but hands like this aren't why you play suited connectors. I could've hit trip 5's here with 5-2 offsuit. You play them for straights and flushes mainly, and the random trips/2 pair. I'm positive you know that, and I know you didn't mean you play these hands to try and hit trips, but that's the way it came off to me and I didn't want anyone else to take it that way.

I dont know if this is what steve was trying to say or not, but If I recall correctly in SS1 Doyle says something like "the reason you play suited connectors is not so much the flush and str8 its the possible 2 prs and trips that no one will put you on." I dont have the book so Im not 100% sure but I think it was something like that this is just MO of course, i could be wrong.

[allinbluff35]

was your river bet a typo or did you make that much of a weak lead hoping he would raise?

[steve7stud]

RISEorFall said:

I like the hand up until the turn. Then I don't like it at all. With you hitting another 5, you don't want to scare him out of the pot. Saying something about his kicker isn't the best way to get him to stay in the hand. What happens if he misses his kicker and you bet the river? If you scared him, he folds. If you didn't say anything, you could check and let him think his AJ is good. When I hit a hand against a guy and have him drawing to about 2 outs, I don't want to scare him. And not to sound like an ass, but hands like this aren't why you play suited connectors. I could've hit trip 5's here with 5-2 offsuit. You play them for straights and flushes mainly, and the random trips/2 pair. I'm positive you know that, and I know you didn't mean you play these hands to try and hit trips, but that's the way it came off to me and I didn't want anyone else to take it that way. Also, not to sound like even more of an ass, but I also think it's pretty easy to read someone when i have trips. And another thing (sorry, they keep popping into mind): While I do like the theory of varying your raising hands to keep people guessing as to what you have, raising with small suited connectors can't be making money in the long run. Getting these hands heads up or 3 way isn't good for them. If you bet out everyone on the flop or turn, it doesn't really matter which two cards you have. I don't think you'll be able to show these hands down often enough for it to have any immediate impact on your table image.

Well this is my 300th post, I think I should get a cookie or something. As opposed to addressing each of your points, all of which I think are valid by the way. The easiest response is, it depends.The illustration I gave you was just that. One specific hand. Sometimes I will lay a hand down, sometimes I will raise. Sometime, I'll be heads up, sometimes everyone will call. Etc, etc, etc.The key to no limit in my opinion, has nothing to do with cards. It has everything to do with the people at the table, and what I think they have. In addition to that, how they will react when I bet, talk, splash my chips, etc. It's a feel game, at least live it is. But again, everyone has a different opinion. What might work for me, won't neccessarily work for you. Good Luck.

[RISEorFall]

allinbluff35 said:

these are the nut peddling responses i'm talking about. Play a deep stacked(<100bb) NLHE game above 5/10 and you might start to comprehend this.

If I had access to a game like that and the money to play, I would. But I don't. However, deep stack NL is my best game. No, not at 5/10 blinds, but I can't afford to play that high. Tell me what part of my post was nut peddling. that i don't like raising with small suited connectors? I don't. I don't see the point in getting heads up or 3 way action with a drawing hand that's dominated. Sure, your one or two opponents won't see it coming when you hit big, but neither will 4 or 5 opponents. And more often than not, you'll get paid off bigger with 4 or 5 opponents. If there are good reasons to get small suited connectors heads up, please tell me, because I can't think of any. If, however, you wanted to start raising some smaller pairs that figure to be a slight favorite heads up or 3 way, that sounds more reasonable to me. It's even harder to see it coming when you hit big, and they play very similar to the hand in this thread. And PrtyPSux, I can't agree with the last statement either. I could just as easily play 9-5 for a random 2 pair or trips that nobody saw coming. THe suited connectors, aside from those, make straights and flushes, and IMO that's what you're often playing for with those hands.

[PrtyPSux]

how bout a tricky Limit hand for tomorrow :-) ....

[RISEorFall]

steve7stud said:

What might work for me, won't neccessarily work for you. Good Luck.

Oh I completely agree. If this style works for you, great. Don't let me try and stop you. But it doesn't work for me. I just figured hands were up for discussion, and I was trying to discuss this one. Sorry if I came off as an ass, I didn't mean to. I've had all of 3 hours sleep the past 2 days. Oh and if I had a cookie, you could have it. But if there were any cookies around here, they'd have been eaten already. and unfortunately there aren't any.... :cry:

[steve7stud]

PrtyPSux said:

how bout a tricky Limit hand for tomorrow :-) ....

I think I'll talk a little bit about short handed limit tomorrow. By the way, I just got off the phone with Gank and he is pumped. He's in the final 24 of the Razz event for tomorrow.

[PrtyPSux]

RISEorFall said:

allinbluff35 said:

these are the nut peddling responses i'm talking about. Play a deep stacked(<100bb) NLHE game above 5/10 and you might start to comprehend this.

If I had access to a game like that and the money to play, I would. But I don't. However, deep stack NL is my best game. No, not at 5/10 blinds, but I can't afford to play that high. Tell me what part of my post was nut peddling. that i don't like raising with small suited connectors? I don't. I don't see the point in getting heads up or 3 way action with a drawing hand that's dominated. Sure, your one or two opponents won't see it coming when you hit big, but neither will 4 or 5 opponents. And more often than not, you'll get paid off bigger with 4 or 5 opponents. If there are good reasons to get small suited connectors heads up, please tell me, because I can't think of any. If, however, you wanted to start raising some smaller pairs that figure to be a slight favorite heads up or 3 way, that sounds more reasonable to me. It's even harder to see it coming when you hit big, and they play very similar to the hand in this thread. And PrtyPSux, I can't agree with the last statement either. I could just as easily play 9-5 for a random 2 pair or trips that nobody saw coming. THe suited connectors, aside from those, make straights and flushes, and IMO that's what you're often playing for with those hands.

the thing IS, that w/ suited connectors you have the str8 and flush possibity PLUS the 2 pr and trips...you get it? it autamatically becomes a stronger hand. Yes, the general rule is to see flops cheaply w/ as many players as possible with the SC and small pairs, BUT if you want to display a very loose/agressive image at they table SC's arent a bad way to do so, you see, if you do show down that hand, later on your premiums will be payed off threefold.I agree w/ some of the things that you are saying, but as Steve said, there are different ways to play. You might like playing tight agressive, I dont, on ocassions though, I will choose to play that way and Ill fold the SC's preflop. It just depends.

[allinbluff35]

allinbluff35 said:

was your river bet a typo or did you make that much of a weak lead hoping he would raise?

in case you missed my question