22 replies to this topic

[TheIceman05]

Situation: I'm playing in a must-move 2-2-5 NL game, and I'm new-ish to the table. We're 5 handed, and I'm in the cutoff.I've raised a few pots up, and hit every flop so far. I bought in for an even grand, and I'm sitting with 1200. The small blind's got about 800, and most other stacks are hanging out closer to 500. I think my table image is pretty LAG (thought I'm playing pretty straightforward), and I can tell the small blind's getting a bit sick of me betting or raising every flop. Player in the small blind is a solid player, but I can tell he's a table-boss type who likes to earn his pots with naked aggression. You know the type. Comes over the top on a ragged board, and you're sure he's got nothing...Preflop: UTG Limps, I make it 20 to go with 7d7h. Button folds, small blindcalls, big blind folds, UTG folds. Heads up vs. small blind to the flopPot = $52Flop: 6d6h8dThis is a great flop for my hand, but I'd love to win it right here. I've got little to no visibility. I'm stepping on a lot of draws with my sevens. I bet out $40, and the small blind insta-calls. The cold call on the flop seems fishy. Overpair seems unlikely, as he'd be inclined to check-raise me and shut me down on this board. Diamond draw also seems unlikely, as he's an aggressive player. An 8 or a 6 is possible. Pot = $132Turn: 5dI'm thinking about going into check-call mode when the small blind immediately fires out a $100 bet. What the f? I think for a few moments, and decide to just call.Pot = $ 332River = 8hHe bets $300.What's the play?Sorry for the length...Ice

[Rocketwadster]

Your opponent kept making pot-sized bets to you, and you didn't show any agression to them (just called them). I think you needed to re-raise that turn bet, to find out where you are at. With that being said, your question pertains to the river action only, so here's my thoughts:What are you beating here that he would have played like he did? There is a possible straight out there, a possible flush out there, and a couple of full houses possible there. You have two pair, and a pretty weak two pair at that. Easy fold now, based on how you played it so far, for me. :wink:

[TheIceman05]

Rocketwadster said:

What are you beating here that he would have played like he did?  

Here's my question. What on Earth am I NOT beating that he plays like that? I've shown aggression on every street, the flush draw comes off on the turn, and he makes a pot-sized bet to me? If I turned a flush and my opponent has bet every street of every betting round so far, I'd at least check-raise. He has NO REASON to think I won't bet this turn. Betting out is weird, isn't it?Or is it just me? Someone tell me if I'm nuts...Ice

[BeanGW]

I fold the river. In a No Limit game, I'm picking better spots than this to call away $300. But then again I probably would have raised the turn.Finally, his smooth call on your flop bet, and push on the Turn and River worries me. I think he's got a good flush here. I don't put him no the boat. If he wanted to show naked aggression to pick up the pot, I think he would have just done so with a big check raise on the flop. I dunno, just my impression. Also, it's pretty risky for him to call your PF raise with a UTG limper still to act. The limper may have been going to a limp/raise, in which case SB would be in trouble by calling your raise. I wouldn't be surprised through if he tried it with Ax suited for the flush.

[Rocketwadster]

Here's my question. What on Earth am I NOT beating that he plays like that? I've shown aggression on every street, WTF? you showed agression after the flop, not on every street.the flush draw comes off on the turn, and he makes a pot-sized bet to me? so what does that mean? Either he has the flush, the straight, the full house, or is on a draw/bluff. You calling here is terrible. Raise or fold. You called, and learned nothing, and will most likely get put to a tougher decision on the riverHe bets $300 on the river. Now what do you do? You regret not raising the turn, and now have to fold.[color="blue"]Maybe it is the way it was posted, but I think your thoughts are slightly askew on this hand, most likely as you know the results. Results don't matter, its the play that does. You played terrible from the turn to the end.

[TheIceman05]

BeanGW said:

I fold the river.   limper still to act.  The limper may have been going to a limp/raise, in which case SB would be in trouble by calling your raise.  I wouldn't be surprised through if he tried it with Ax suited for the flush.

Two things1) Keep in mind that it's shorthanded, and nobody who's anybody limp/reraises. There are plenty of hands he can call a raise with here against an aggressive player, even anticipating 3-way action. 2) Why the **** does he bet out on the turn? Why why why why why? I realize good players fast-play their good hands, but if he's got the flush, he's scared of losing me when the scariest card in the deck comes off, isn't he? 3) (Fine, 3 things) Raising the turn here is hard, and bad for a few reasons that I can think of. I want to hear a little more before I make a fool of myself and try to explain whyIce

[TheIceman05]

Rocketwadster said:

Here's my question.  What on Earth am I NOT beating that he plays like that?  I've shown aggression on every street, WTF?  you showed agression after the flop, not on every street.

Whoops. I meant on every street of every hand I'd been involved in so far. If I raised preflop, I've bet every flop, turn, and river. No need to get testy man. Why are you angry with me for this? Ice

[Rocketwadster]

TheIceman05 said:

Rocketwadster said:

Here's my question.  What on Earth am I NOT beating that he plays like that?  I've shown aggression on every street, WTF?  you showed agression after the flop, not on every street.

Whoops. I meant on every street of every hand I'd been involved in so far. If I raised preflop, I've bet every flop, turn, and river. No need to get testy man. Why are you angry with me for this? Ice

Sorry if I sound angry, as I am not. The WTF is more of a why are you thinking this way sort of thing than a what are you thinking you stupid shyte...lol

[BeanGW]

TheIceman05 said:

1) Keep in mind that it's shorthanded, and nobody who's anybody limp/reraises.  There are plenty of hands he can call a raise with here against an aggressive player, even anticipating 3-way action.  Good point... I didn't really think of that.  But still, he's calling a PF raise, so he isn't just completing with a garbage hand.  You said he's a solid player.2)  Why the censored does he bet out on the turn?  Why why why why why?  I realize good players fast-play their good hands, but if he's got the flush, he's scared of losing me when the scariest card in the deck comes off, isn't he?    Hmmm... well I would go for the check raise in his position as well.  But, that said, isn't the whole point of getting yourself a solid table boss image who shows naked aggression (as you said SB was) to be able to play your strong hands aggressively too because you will be seen as LAG and will be called by second best hands?  I dunno, just a thought.  Ice

[TheIceman05]

BeanGW said:

TheIceman05 said:

1) Keep in mind that it's shorthanded, and nobody who's anybody limp/reraises.  There are plenty of hands he can call a raise with here against an aggressive player, even anticipating 3-way action.  Good point... I didn't really think of that.  But still, he's calling a PF raise, so he isn't just completing with a garbage hand.  You said he's a solid player.2)  Why the censored does he bet out on the turn?  Why why why why why?  I realize good players fast-play their good hands, but if he's got the flush, he's scared of losing me when the scariest card in the deck comes off, isn't he?    Hmmm... well I would go for the check raise in his position as well.  But, that said, isn't the whole point of getting yourself a solid table boss image who shows naked aggression (as you said SB was) to be able to play your strong hands aggressively too because you will be seen as LAG and will be called by second best hands?  I dunno, just a thought.  Ice

He was solid, but I was reasonably sure he wasn't smart enough to bet out with his flush. He's macho. He can raise with any two cards... etc. etc. And I only played 15-20 hands with him. But I thought long long long long and hard about the fact that I might have been drawing super slim. Ice

[dmuoio]

I think that you have to lay it down on the turn, or make a raise to see where you are at. No need to bet a ton of chips, make it $250 if you need to raise, but I advocate laying it down. I meant what can you beat? Any 8,6, or hands like 99, 10 10, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA have you destroyed. I think there are better spots to commit your money. Just my 2 cents.D

[TheIceman05]

dmuoio said:

I meant what can you beat? Any 8,6, or hands like 99, 10 10, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA have you destroyed. I think there are better spots to commit your money.D

See, I'm just trying to figure out what he has? Can we narrow his range of holding based on his thinking and how he played the hand? Sure, I'm behind AA, but there's no reason to expect he's got AA. In fact, I have reason to suspect he's NEVER showing an overpair here.But I'm curious... what can he have here? And why?Ice

[Rocketwadster]

Quote

See, I'm just trying to figure out what he has? Can we narrow his range of holding based on his thinking and how he played the hand? Sure, I'm behind AA, but there's no reason to expect he's got AA. In fact, I have reason to suspect he's NEVER showing an overpair here.

You raised pre-flop to $20, which if I understand this 2 2 5 game correctly, is 4X BB. SB knows that they will not have position throughout the hand, but have called $18. If it was me, I would just call with the following (please note that I do not play a lot of NL, especially short-handed):Any pocket pair lower than 8 (anything higher I would probably re-raise), any ace with king, queen, jack, ten, nine, eight suited or offsuit (if suited I would probably re-raise the ace king and ace queen suited), king with queen (suited only), queen with jack (suited only, and this is a stretch). Definately wouldn't play suited connectors lower than queen jack, nor suited aces lower than eight (and this is only due to being shorthanded, if full table I wouldn't go lower than ace ten).Flop comes 6 6 8 . There is a bet of $40 into a $52 pot. Costs me $40 to win $92 (plus my $40). From the holdings I said I would play above, I am only calling with my suited aces (not ace 8, as I would probalby raise), suited king queen or queen jack, or my pocket pair lower than 8 but higher than 5 (I would play pocket 8's this way, hoping to trap, calling with pocket 7's, calling with pocket 6's hoping to trap, folding with any lower pocket pair). Note: If I am an agressive player, I may be calling here with any of the other hands I said I would play if a scare card comes hoping to bluff you out, but I can't see that happening.Turn is a nice scare card, making a straight or flush possible, as well as the full houses, and even a straight flush. $132 pot, if I have a non-nut flush, I am betting $100 here, to see where I am at. Same with a straight, to see if you have a straight or a flush. I like betting into the raiser, whether I have a hand or not. In my mind, if you call you are unsure about your hand, and I can probably get you to fold on the river, depending on what comes up (regardless of what I have). If you raise me, if I am on a bluff I can fold, but if I have something, I can re-raise back. $100 is a great bet in this spot. Oh look, my opponent just called me...is he trapping me, or is he worried about his hand?River is an 8H. Another scare card, unless you raised with an 8 pre-flop (only hand I can see you doing that would be pocket 8's, MAYBE ace 8 suited). You didn't re-raise me on the turn, so I do not think you have a straight, a flush, or a full house. So if I have any of those hands, I will win if you call. You are hooped either way, unless you re-raise my $300 bet here on the river...Looks to me like I (the SB) had ace jack, ten, nine, or 8 of diamonds, pocket 6's, pocket 7's, or pocket 8's. Anything else that could be possible would mean that I am a savage (a la Gus Hansen) willing to play almost any two cards to a pre-flop raise. :wink:

[Smasharoo]

Fold the turn, and stop drinking so much that it impairs your judgement.

[Smasharoo]

But I'm curious... what can he have here? And why? Well, lots of hands.I play 88 this way. Smooth call the flop bet, bet out when a card that completes every second best in the universe hits the turn. Plus, some moron might call me with 77 drawing dead.

[TheIceman05]

Smasharoo said:

[b]I play 88 this way. Smooth call the flop bet, bet out when a card that completes every second best in the universe hits the turn. Plus, some moron might call me with 77 drawing dead.:)

I might play it this way, too. But would you play it that way if you had strong reason to suspect your opponent would bet the turn if you checked?I am pretty sure I decided he'd be significantly more likely to bet a naked Ad here, or fire out on a bluff than he would be to bet a made hand. The river made things interesting, but I eventually called for a few reasons. The more I thought about it, the more I thought I might be against a hand like Ad8x, but I was pretty sure he'd fire another bullet on that board 8866x, figuring it would be very tough for me to call w/o an 8 or a 6 (which he could pretty easily rule out considering the aggression I'd been showing) and that he's going to chop with me if I call. I showed a ton of weakness on the turn, and he made a very large bet on the river, leading me to believe he was trying to take it away. I was willing to pay him off if he'd correctly played the hand very fast against me, and realized that I easily could have gotten my money in with a better hand against him later.IcePS- I had the OESFD on the turn, so I wasn't drawing STONE dead to much of anything....PPS- Yes, drinking and playing out of my bankroll makes poker significantly more difficult than it should be

[Smasharoo]

I might play it this way, too. But would you play it that way if you had strong reason to suspect your opponent would bet the turn if you checked?Of course I would.Checking there is FPS at it's worst.So what did he beat you with, anyway?

[TheIceman05]

Smasharoo said:

[b]Checking there is FPS at it's worst.So what did he beat you with, anyway?

I'm not saying it's a great play, and I fastplay my good hands when I play NL. But my read on the guy led me to believe there's no way he's betting this monster. I think he'd much rather check-raise me for the "Nuh uh! No you don't! Not in MY house!" value of shutting down an aggressive player with a check-raise...It was funny... I was taking a long time, and the table started getting mad "We're paying for this time, okay? Hurry up." I said I'd pay the table share for the next half-hour for everybody at the table if I won if they gave me a few more minutes. Finally I said call and flipped my hand over. He mucked. Don't get drunk and do stupid stuff, like show your winning hand and forfeit your chance to see your opponent's cards. I gotta believe it was a stone bluff on the river with an A. Ad makes sense, but he tilted off about another grand after that and didn't do a single logical thing the rest of the night, so... (shrug)That turn bet still really seemed off to me.Ice

[Smasharoo]

Nah, realy. What did he beat you with?

[TheIceman05]

Smasharoo said:

Nah, realy. What did he beat you with?

He had a joker, which I COMPLETELY forgot about.Ice