48 replies to this topic

[wrto4556]

OK...I know what it is, but I don't know it inside and out yet. Pot odds, implied odds, effective odds, and reverse implied odds took a long time to learn, as I had to use them on a regular bases for a long peroid of time. I want to make sure I have this right so that when I use it while i'm playing, i'm using it correctly. Here gos...Pot equity is the % of the pot which is "guaranteed" to you.For example, suppose you are playing a $3/6 limit hold'em game.You are on the button with A 8 , and limp in after 4 other players. The small blind completes and the big blind checks.There is currently $21 in the pot.The flop comes: 5 8 K The first player in checks and the second player bets, the next two players call and the action is to you.There is currently $30 in the pot.Math time: You will win 60% of the time (check if that is right)So your pot equity is $18 and it is only $3 to call. Therefore, you should try to raise as much as possible with this hand.Is this correct?

[Smasharoo]

OK...I know what it is, but I don't know it inside and out yet. Pot odds, implied odds, effective odds, and reverse implied odds took a long time to learn, as I had to use them on a regular bases for a long peroid of time. I want to make sure I have this right so that when I use it while i'm playing, i'm using it correctly. Here gos...Pot equity is the % of the pot which is "guaranteed" to you.Sort of. Put simply it's the amount of money you can expect to win from the current pot on average. So if there are 4 people in the pot, and you are 40% to win, someone else is 50% to win and two people are each 5% to win, you have a signifigant pot equity advantage over the mean of 25% to win.Here you have substantial pot equity even though you aren't the favorite to win the hand.For example, suppose you are playing a $3/6 limit hold'em game.You are on the button with A Suit: Club 8 Suit: Club , and limp in after 4 other players. The small blind completes and the big blind checks.There is currently $21 in the pot.The flop comes: 5 Suit: Club 8 Suit: Spade K Suit: ClubThe first player in checks and the second player bets, the next two players call and the action is to you.There is currently $30 in the pot.Math time: You will win 60% of the time (check if that is right)So your pot equity is $18 and it is only $3 to call. Therefore, you should try to raise as much as possible with this hand.Is this correct?Yes, you'd want to raise for value here assuming it's likely you get callers. More importnatly you'd want to raise for value if the 8 were a 3.The important thing to take home about pot equity is that you don''t need the hand most likely to win to raise for value, you just need a hand that will more often the odds you get on a raise. It's most usefull with clean clear nut draws. If you have a draw to a nut straight or FH or flush and you'll hit it 1 time in 3 and have 7 likely callers you'd cap it if they'd all call.

[wrto4556]

Same situation. You have A 8 on the button, but only 2 players limp, the small blind folds, and the big blind checks. There is $13 in the pot.The flop is: 2 5 K The first person in bets and the second player folds. The action is to you.There is $16 in the pot.You are getting good odds to draw, but is your pot equity high enough for a raise to be correct?Please explain the best you can. I'm trying to understand the concept completely. From alllll aspect.

[vegasholdem]

:?

[wrto4556]

vegasholdem said:

:?

Here is an exerpt (SPELL CHECK) from Small Stakes Hold'em by David Sklansky."Your 'pot equity' is the dollar or bet amount equivalent to the percentage of the pot that you expect to win. That is, if the pot contains ten bets, and you have a draw to the nuts that will come in twenty percent of the time, your pot equity is two bets (twenty percent of ten). Thinking in terms of pot equity is most useful when the pot is multi-way."I think I just answered my second question.In the first example, the pot was $30 (or 10 bets) and my win percentage was 60%. So, 60% of 30 is 18 (or 6 bets). So you should raise because it is equal to or more than 2 bets.In the second example, the pot is only $16 (or 5 bets). You will win 30% of the time. So, 30% of 16 is ~5 (or 1.7 bets).Making this situation a call.

[theACE]

I am also trying to master this, and that makes sense to me wrto.you've clarified it quite well for me, as well as yourself too I guess haha.

[JaysonWeber]

yeah this has helped me too... I've been working on pot equity for a few months now... and happily enough I was able to think to myself what to do in these situations, you did the math for me already so I double checked my work and I was right! I think this is called "pushing the edges" by a lot of pro's when they speak of "really pushing the edges"

[Smasharoo]

You are getting good odds to draw, but is your pot equity high enough for a raise to be correct? Right.A raise heads up with a flush draw might even make it incorrect for you to draw if the pot was small.The concept applies pre-flop as well. If 5 limp to you on the button and you have AJs, you should raise, because you'll win this hand well over 20% of the time.Pot equity is also why you'd raise other premium hands pre-flop even when yu're almost certain it won't knock anyone out.There are many situations where you might FOLD hands in smaller pots where raisgin becomes the correct play because of your pot equity in a multi-way pot.

[Spidurman]

JaysonWeber said:

I think this is called "pushing the edges" by a lot of pro's when they speak of "really pushing the edges"

One player known for doing that is Raymer - I've seen alot of his advice on another forum, and he is very aggressive about betting from ahead...very aggressive.Its a logical stance in cash game play imo, when the long run is really long. In a tournament, I would apply situational factors moreso - I'd love be betting with a slight edge in most cases, but calling, I don't know.

[JaysonWeber]

Gavin Griffin was the one I was talking about when he speaks of "pushing the edges" in Limit games.

[Azalin]

Those examples really helped me also. Thanks.

[JFarrell20]

I haven't really delved into the nuances of "Pot Equity" yet. But I'm pretty sure I'm abiding by the general theory. As I tell myself about Limit Hold em "Put money in when you are strong. Check/call when you are not sure. Fold when you are weak."In other words, I try to jam the pot early when I have a great hand. I will slow it down if the flop looks dangerous (ie. I've got KK and flop comes 678 of clubs). you want to make raises in multi-way pots when you are strong b/c its most likely in limit that multiple callers will call the raise pre-flop, thus making your potentially winning pot bigger.

[wrto4556]

JFarrell20 said:

I haven't really delved into the nuances of "Pot Equity" yet. But I'm pretty sure I'm abiding by the general theory. As I tell myself about Limit Hold em "Put money in when you are strong. Check/call when you are not sure. Fold when you are weak."In other words, I try to jam the pot early when I have a great hand. I will slow it down if the flop looks dangerous (ie. I've got KK and flop comes 678 of clubs). you want to make raises in multi-way pots when you are strong b/c its most likely in limit that multiple callers will call the raise pre-flop, thus making your potentially winning pot bigger.

You should really learn it. Pot odds say when to call instead of folding. pot equity sais when to raise instead of calling. It's an edge you should push if you want to maximize your winning and minimize your losses.

[jogsxyz]

wrto4556 said:

vegasholdem said:

:?

Here is an exerpt (SPELL CHECK) from Small Stakes Hold'em by David Sklansky."Your 'pot equity' is the dollar or bet amount equivalent to the percentage of the pot that you expect to win. That is, if the pot contains ten bets, and you have a draw to the nuts that will come in twenty percent of the time, your pot equity is two bets (twenty percent of ten). Thinking in terms of pot equity is most useful when the pot is multi-way."

This portion of the concept seems to be for calling strategies.

Quote

I think I just answered my second question.In the first example, the pot was $30 (or 10 bets) and my win percentage was 60%. So, 60% of 30 is 18 (or 6 bets). So you should raise because it is equal to or more than 2 bets.In the second example, the pot is only $16 (or 5 bets). You will win 30% of the time. So, 30% of 16 is ~5 (or 1.7 bets).Making this situation a call.

How did you determine that your win percentage was 60%? The bettor probably has a king. Dont know what the two callers have?If you are truly 60% favorite raising is alright. The size of the pot before the raise is not relevant. You need good value for your raise. Also the bettor might reraise, as he could have two pair or a set.

[Smasharoo]

You should raise anytime your pot equity is higher than the number of people likely to call the raise.If you're 20 percent to win and you are certain you'll get 6 callers to a raise, you should raise.Even though you will lose the hand 80% of the time.

[JFarrell20]

Smasharoo said:

You should raise anytime your pot equity is higher than the number of people likely to call the raise.If you're 20 percent to win and you are certain you'll get 6 callers to a raise, you should raise.Even though you will lose the hand 80% of the time.

Yeah, that's how I play. I didn't know there was a team for it really, but when I get KK or AA before the flop, and there're 5 limpers in front of me, I'll bump it up b/c I'll most likely get 5 calls. And I'm pretty sure KK or AA will win more than 20% of the time, so I'm jamming the pot pre-flop when I'm the pre-flop favorite.

[wrto4556]

jogsxyz said:

wrto4556 said:

vegasholdem said:

:?

Here is an exerpt (SPELL CHECK) from Small Stakes Hold'em by David Sklansky."Your 'pot equity' is the dollar or bet amount equivalent to the percentage of the pot that you expect to win. That is, if the pot contains ten bets, and you have a draw to the nuts that will come in twenty percent of the time, your pot equity is two bets (twenty percent of ten). Thinking in terms of pot equity is most useful when the pot is multi-way."

This portion of the concept seems to be for calling strategies.

Quote

I think I just answered my second question.In the first example, the pot was $30 (or 10 bets) and my win percentage was 60%. So, 60% of 30 is 18 (or 6 bets). So you should raise because it is equal to or more than 2 bets.In the second example, the pot is only $16 (or 5 bets). You will win 30% of the time. So, 30% of 16 is ~5 (or 1.7 bets).Making this situation a call.

How did you determine that your win percentage was 60%? The bettor probably has a king. Dont know what the two callers have?If you are truly 60% favorite raising is alright. The size of the pot before the raise is not relevant. You need good value for your raise. Also the bettor might reraise, as he could have two pair or a set.

I have outs to a better two pair, trips, and the nut flush. I actually think it would be correct to three bet this on the flop.

[Smasharoo]

Yeah, that's how I play. I didn't know there was a team for it really, but when I get KK or AA before the flop, and there're 5 limpers in front of me, I'll bump it up b/c I'll most likely get 5 calls. And I'm pretty sure KK or AA will win more than 20% of the time, so I'm jamming the pot pre-flop when I'm the pre-flop favorite.Actually that's just raising with the best hand.It's not really realted to raising with a hand which isn't the best because of your pot equity.Obviously you want to raise with the best hand.

[JFarrell20]

Smasharoo said:

Yeah, that's how I play. I didn't know there was a team for it really, but when I get KK or AA before the flop, and there're 5 limpers in front of me, I'll bump it up b/c I'll most likely get 5 calls. And I'm pretty sure KK or AA will win more than 20% of the time, so I'm jamming the pot pre-flop when I'm the pre-flop favorite.Actually that's just raising with the best hand.It's not really realted to raising with a hand which isn't the best because of your pot equity.Obviously you want to raise with the best hand.

So then Pot Equity has more to do with drawing hands? In other words, not the best hand at the moment but if you hit your draw you will probably have the nuts.I'm not too clear on what the difference between pot equity and pot odds is.This seems awfully similar to pot odds.

[wrto4556]

Farrel...They are very similar. Pot odds dictate when a call/fold is correct. Pot equity dictates when a raise/call is correct. Should I raise with my draw? pot equity. Should I call with my draw? pot odds.