54 replies to this topic

[econ_tim]

I don't have the hand history for this, so I'll miss some details.$1/$2 PLO8 FullTilt (5 handed)I have about $100 (I had just sat down and bought in for half the max since all but one person had $80 or less).SB has about $250Button has about $50I'm in the big blind with [ATTX]Someone min raises preflop, everyone calls including me.Flop: Pot: $20 [Jc Ks Qs]SB checks, I bet $10, 2 folds, Button calls, SB raises the max to $60, I fold, Button calls all-in.So I guess folding is the standard play since I have no redraws. If one of my opponents has trips and the other has a flush draw, then I am a big dog. But should I bet out here, or just check?The turn and river didn't help anyone.SB had ATXX for ace-high straight. Button had 9TXX for ass-end of straight. Neither player had a redraw.

[cdddc75]

econ_tim said:

I don't have the hand history for this, so I'll miss some details.$1/$2 PLO8 FullTilt (5 handed)I have about $100 (I had just sat down and bought in for half the max since all but one person had $80 or less).SB has about $250Button has about $50I'm in the big blind with [ATTX]Someone min raises preflop, everyone calls including me.Flop: Pot: $20 [Jc Ks Qs]SB checks, I bet $10, 2 folds, Button calls, SB raises the max to $60, I fold, Button calls all-in.So I guess folding is the standard play since I have no redraws. If one of my opponents has trips and the other has a flush draw, then I am a big dog. But should I bet out here, or just check?The turn and river didn't help anyone.SB had ATXX for ace-high straight. Button had 9TXX for ass-end of straight. Neither player had a redraw.

That's one of those cases where you have to slowplay the nuts for fear of being redrawn. No reason to fire at the flop at all.

[Absolute]

You have around 40% equity, you should be calling.I can't tell exactly but it looks like you are getting more than 2.5:1 to call. If that is the case, you should be calling here and pushing on a safe turn.

[econ_tim]

Absolute said:

You have around 40% equity, you should be calling.I can't tell exactly but it looks like you are getting more than 2.5:1 to call. If that is the case, you should be calling here and pushing on a safe turn.

I don't know. There is $100 in the pot. It is $50 to me to call. So it looks like 2:1. And I have to dodge 17 outs twice, I think.

[TheIceman05]

No reason to bet this flop. Pot-management is one of the more important skills in PLO, and in a situation like this it's key. You can call a pot sized bet on the flop if you don't bet out, and do the same on a safe turn. If the board pairs or the flush card comes off, getting away from it shouldn't be too hard, and it'll likely slow the rest of the table down if their hand became second best, tooIce

[Absolute]

econ_tim said:

Absolute said:

You have around 40% equity, you should be calling.I can't tell exactly but it looks like you are getting more than 2.5:1 to call. If that is the case, you should be calling here and pushing on a safe turn.

I don't know. There is $100 in the pot. It is $50 to me to call. So it looks like 2:1. And I have to dodge 17 outs twice, I think.

theres a lot more than $100 in the pot

[Absolute]

This isn't too tough guys.You have right about 40% equity against the two villians here, and that is IF one has a set and one a flush draw. I am granting you that and I can still justify a call.The pot size is about $140 when it comes back to you after the raise. That is almost 2.8:1 to call.It doesn't take a mathematician to see that you should be calling this bet everytime.

[Absolute]

By the way, checking this flop would be absolutely horrible.You don't want to give free cards here under any circumstance. Bet around $15 and call a raise.

[econ_tim]

OK, I ran some hands through the odds calculator at Cardplayer.If I have [Ad Td Tc 4h]against [6s 5s 2c 2h] and [Kc 3c Kh 3h]and the flop is [Jc Ks Qs]Then the odds of winning at showdown are 29.13% for my hand, 28.38% for the flush draw, and 42.29% for the set with backdoor straight.So I'm not sure how you can say I have 40% equity, although Omaha is still somewhat mysterious to me.(Note: these are just hypothetical worst case hands, but I think a flush draw would be a reasonable hand for the Button to call with and a set would be a reasonable hand for the SB to bet big.)About the pot size: Maybe it's not clear because I didn't have a proper hand history. Preflop, there were 5 players for $4 each, making $20. On the flop, I bet out $10 and the Button calls, making it $40. Then the SB makes a pot-sized raise (call the $10 and raise $50), putting the pot at $100.So when it comes to me, I have to call $50, and have 2-1.

[Absolute]

econ_tim said:

OK, I ran some hands through the odds calculator at Cardplayer.If I have [Ad Td Tc 4h]against [6s 5s 2c 2h] and [Kc 3c Kh 3h]and the flop is [Jc Ks Qs]Then the odds of winning at showdown are 29.13% for my hand, 28.38% for the flush draw, and 42.29% for the set with backdoor straight.So I'm not sure how you can say I have 40% equity, although Omaha is still somewhat mysterious to me.(Note: these are just hypothetical worst case hands, but I think a flush draw would be a reasonable hand for the Button to call with and a set would be a reasonable hand for the SB to bet big.)About the pot size: Maybe it's not clear because I didn't have a proper hand history. Preflop, there were 5 players for $4 each, making $20. On the flop, I bet out $10 and the Button calls, making it $40. Then the SB makes a pot-sized raise (call the $10 and raise $50), putting the pot at $100.So when it comes to me, I have to call $50, and have 2-1.

You are forgetting the Button calling all in

[JaysonWeber]

Absolute said:

You have around 40% equity, you should be calling.I can't tell exactly but it looks like you are getting more than 2.5:1 to call. If that is the case, you should be calling here and pushing on a safe turn.

That's right. Fear the turn and push it hard if its safe.This is where pot manipulation comes into play, you want this to be as small as possible going to the turn so that it's -EV for them to call a large enough bet (from the sounds of it pushing someone all-in) Straights can loose people a lot of money in this situation... Wait until the turn and if it's safe push it max.

[econ_tim]

Absolute said:

You are forgetting the Button calling all in

The Button calls all in after I fold.

[Smasharoo]

You have around 40% equity, you should be calling. Um, no.You are often crushed by another AT with redraws.This isn't Holdem.

[cdddc75]

Smasharoo said:

You have around 40% equity, you should be calling. Um, no.You are often crushed by another AT with redraws.This isn't Holdem.

[Balloon guy]

So did your info on the bad play of the other two give you the ability to take their money later? The same reasons not to call you felt, they should have. The guy with the sucker end of the straight really is begging to give someone all his money.

[Absolute]

cdddc75 said:

Smasharoo said:

You have around 40% equity, you should be calling. Um, no.You are often crushed by another AT with redraws.This isn't Holdem.

i really hope you arent going to constantly quote what smash says, because thats going to get real old real fast

[cdddc75]

Absolute said:

i really hope you arent going to constantly quote what smash says, because thats going to get real old real fast

I only quote him when he's obviously right. Jamming this particular Broadway from early position with no redraws is very bad. If you're lucky, you're playing for a chop without being freerolled.

[Smasharoo]

i really hope you arent going to constantly quote what smash says, because thats going to get real old real fastWhat he should do is quote you saying things like people have 40% pot equity when they're often crushed beyond belief praying for a split pot.Hahah.That'd be better.

[econ_tim]

I don't think betting out here is too bad though. Since this is O8B, there should be some people who have low-only hands, and they will fold. And I didn't expect to be reraised here. The reraise makes sense for someone with a set and a flush draw or someone who has the straight and a redraw, both of which I thought were unlikely shorthanded.

[cdddc75]

econ_tim said:

I don't think betting out here is too bad though. Since this is O8B, there should be some people who have low-only hands, and they will fold. And I didn't expect to be reraised here. The reraise makes sense for someone with a set and a flush draw or someone who has the straight and a redraw, both of which I thought were unlikely shorthanded.

If you don't think betting out the flop was bad, why did you fold to SB's check/jam?Even though you have the current nuts, your hand is still a drawing hand. You are drawing to blanks on the turn and river. It's a strong draw, but not one worth betting out when this pot will be chopped often.If a flush will come in 35% of the time and a set will fill up about 30-35% of the time, your hand is no stronger than those draws. Given the chop risk and lack of redraws, your hand probably doesn't have much more than 25% equity against typical O8B hands. You don't need to fold the low-only hands here, they've already checked the Fold to any Bet checkbox.