bad play: me or him?

[JFarrell20 1]

OK I already know Smasharoo will say my play was bad but for the rest of you, here goes.MTT NL Holdem SB: 25 BB: 50. I've got about 850 left. Average is like 1100. I get 6-6 in the BB (two callers ahead of me). I check. Flop comes 2 4 Q rainbow. I bet 50 (minimum bet). Guy calls, other guy folds. (Now we're heads up)Turn comes a 5. I check. ( probably should have thrown out a weak lead again but anyway). Other guy pushes all in for like 1100 to go! Right away I assume I'm beat. Then I think about it more... why would he push all in here? I've only bet 50, then checked... he really has no idea what I'm holding right now. I figured he wouldn't push all in with just top pair... every hand I put him on I could not fathom why he'd push all in here (Is he on a draw? He must be semi-bluffing...) So I'm actually thinking my 6's are good. I call. He flips over 4's and 5's for two pair. WOW. WTF?! I'm out.So after I had a little Hellmuthesque tantrum and I tell him that the 5 could have improved me to a straight or a set he says "Why do you think I went all in? I didnt want you to hit a set on the river". Ody-Ody-Ody..HUH!?!? There's 4 cards out there already and he's worried about the RIVER helping me? LOL. I told him he had no idea what I was holding, and with a 2-4-5 out there I could have just made my straight! "Why would you push all in with 2 pair?" I say. He replies, "Uhh, dude, two pairs is a good hand." HAHAHA. Anyway, he continued to tell me that his play was good (the pot was like 225 here and he puts 1100 on top of it. lol.). I think I was right to assume he was semi-bluffing and that my 6's were actually good here.What do you guys think? Would you have made his play? And I know my check on the turn was not good, but specifically I'm talking about his bet/my call. Thoughts please...

[Wilderness 0]

What you asked about: his bet and your call are both bad in my opinion. Realistically with his bet, the only times he *should* get a caller is when he is beat by a straight, a set, or maybe a higher two pair. Now, from your perspective I can see why you would find his massive overbet to be very fishy, however I think to risk your whole stack when he could very easily have a Q, a straight, a set, or the two pair that he did have is just not a good idea at all. Its just not worth your tournament life.Also, I think you should have played the hand more strongly from the start. You are in the BB and you've only got two limpers in front of you. You've got a pocket pair so you've got to raise from the get-go. Also, that flop is pretty good for you, so you've got to come out betting more than just the minimum. The odds are against your opponents having a Q, and if they do you can figure that out by their actions against your flop bet and on the turn. By raising pre-flop, and then making a decent bet after the flop, you will likely get the 45 to drop his hand before/on the flop, as well as anyone who might have middle/low pair or a Q with a weak kicker.

[The Student 0]

I agree that you played the hand to weak from the beginning you have to make a move with that hand with your stack if your three handed. A post oak bet on the flop is an invite for weak hands to out draw you. The post oak bet was probably the worst play in this hand, first it made it nice and easy for the 4s to take another card, second it got another person out of the hand, if it was three way on the turn the all-in was not as likely (this is all hind-sight mind you) and with the all-in with one more person left to act, it would have made your decision easier. On that flop and even before the flop, you should either bet big or not bet at all.

[JFarrell20 1]

Yeah, I realize I should have probably raised pre-flop then bet more on the flop and probably get the 4's to fold. Unfortunately I didn't. I still think his move was strange to push 1100 more ontop of 250. I was kind of using the tournament as an exercise in reading. You see these guys on TV all the time calling with low pairs and they are actually GOOD! lol. I really thought he was bluffing or at least on a draw and so I figured I'd call, regardless of my errors earlier in the hand.Thanks for the input though. Follow-up:Both of you said I should have raised pre-flop with the 6's. I'm not totally sold on this move for a couple reasons. One, if the flop comes 10 A 8 and I'm first to act, what am I supposed to do? I got two bettors behind me, clearly someone will bet here and if it's big enough, I probably can't call. Secondly, I like the check here because if a 6 comes on the flop I can really nail them both (they would not suspect I am holding a set).Thanks

[Konidias 0]

I'd say your play was bad. Also, to laugh at him thinking two pair was good in that situation, shows stiffness in your game, or your thinking. At least to me it does.In fact, if I were playing you, and knew that you thought the way you did, I would intentionally make enormous bets when I have great hands, because with your theory, people only make big bets when they are chasing something and trying to scare you away. This leads to disaster more times than it leads to good fortune.You can't just assume he's chasing something because he threw all in. Maybe he's a bad player and he thinks two pair really is that great... maybe he is a great player and realizes you'd think he was a fish.I think that's one reason why some of the pros get so surprised at the newcomers to the WSOP and such. They think the newcomers are making bad plays, and bite into them.I'm thinking that if I ever compete in the WSOP, I'm going to use that "professional" thinking against them, and act like I'm a big fish. Overbetting the pot when I have the nuts, pushing all in when I have a set but it looks like I'm chasing, etc.Anyway, to make a long story short... Even if you thought you had him figured out, it wasn't worth risking your whole stack on.

[Wilderness 0]

Yeah, I realize I should have probably raised pre-flop then bet more on the flop and probably get the 4's to fold.  Unfortunately I didn't.  I still think his move was strange to push 1100 more ontop of 250.  I was kind of using the tournament as an exercise in reading.  You see these guys on TV all the time calling with low pairs and they are actually GOOD! lol.  I really thought he was bluffing or at least on a draw and so I figured I'd call, regardless of my errors earlier in the hand.Thanks for the input though.  Follow-up:Both of you said I should have raised pre-flop with the 6's.  I'm not totally sold on this move for a couple reasons.  One, if the flop comes 10 A 8 and I'm first to act, what am I supposed to do?  I got two bettors behind me, clearly someone will bet here and if it's big enough, I probably can't call.  Secondly, I like the check here because if a 6 comes on the flop I can really nail them both (they would not suspect I am holding a set).Thanks

If the flop comes 10 A 8, why do you assume that it hit one of your opponents? First of all, when you raise before the flop, one or both of them may fold. With the raise they are probably thinking one of two things: that you are trying to steal because there was only 2 limpers, or you have a good hand, which would often include an A with a good kicker. Therefore, when you bet out after the flop of 10 A 8 (which you should), even if they have an A they are likely to have a bad kicker and be afraid of what you have. If they call or raise, then you may want to slow down and perhaps check/fold on the turn or river depending on the turn and what you think they may have.When it comes around to you in the BB, with two limpers, you are very likely ahead and have the best hand so I think you should bet it. Like I said before, one or both of them could definitely fold, and even if they stay in, they will probably miss the flop. When an A comes, you may be a little concerned, since if they called your raise(s) then they could definitely have an A, but more often than not there will be no A on the flop and they will not hit their cards.

[jayboogie 0]

calling was a definite error. What hands can you possibly beat at this point? only an underpair on the board, or a straight draw which he would likely not hold and go all-in with. Considering you only have the blinds invested and the 50 chips you bet on the flop, get out of this hand. I had a similar hand in the tournament forum where I went all-in with a strong draw and got called by middle pair, it really throws you off when players are willing to make these kind of calls. You should never risk your tournament life on middle pair. The players you see call with middle pair are those with a lot of chips to work with and can afford to trust their read and try to bust the guy that hand. Now, I don't agree with his all-in move, which was pretty strange, because he could have probably trapped you with that hand, but the end result was even better for him because you misplayed it. Too many people think that you should always bet for value to get the most out of your hand. This would be the case in a ring game, but not in a NL tournament. All it takes for you to lose and get knocked out is 1 card, to win hands without a showdown is what your looking to do in a NL tournament.My own hand where I went all-in on a strong draw where I was 61.5% favorite after the flop, many people don't agree with, but I still feel I made the right play and he just made a bad call with middle pair. Personally, when I push all-in, I am usually trying to take the pot right there and getting out drawing hands. When somebody hits middle pair on the board, I'm not going to give them a free card to try and hit their set or 2 pair, so I'll push all-in or at least make it costly to try and hit them.

[Smasharoo 0]

What do you guys think?I think I need to play with more people who call all ins with middle pair.His play sucked, yours sucked worse.

[JFarrell20 1]

What do you guys think?I think I need to play with more people who call all ins with middle pair.His play sucked, yours sucked worse.

Have you not watched top-level poker players on TV make calls with less? Like I said, this was totally an exercise in reading. I thought, "I think this bet is fishy, I want to call and find out if my instincts are right." That's it. I think my thought process was correct, and that his all in was pretty ridiculous (he was nowhere near holding the nuts and he had no idea what I had). That's a stupid time to push all in and put up over 4 times the pot size to take it down. Did you guys not see Ted Forrest call with a pair of 2's in a 7-card stud game heads up??? That was INSANE. And he won. The other guy looked like he wanted a noose after Ted flipped his cards over. That is the difference between good players and champions. Forrest's read was correct, so he went with it. I thought mine was correct; it wasn't. I lost. Oh well, lesson learned. (Now if this game was live, obviously I'd remember this bet by him for months to come...unfortunately it was on the internet).A pair of 6's with a board of 2 4 Q 5 is not that bad at all. Especially with a crazy bet thrown out there. A 3 on the river would have made my hand, a 6 would have made my hand. It was not as stupid as it seems.But anyway, thanks for the advice. You too, smash, as I always write your advice down on post-its and hang them in my office at work. My co-workers come by and touch themselves while reading your nuggets of wisdom. Last thursday I had to take 20 minutes out of my time just to clean up after them. (That was after you posted the odds of getting dealt AA are equal to AK)

[acedude 0]

I think that it was a weak play by you. It is just too risky to put in your whole stack there. It may seem like a crazy play to go all-in there(it was), but even if he is crazy, it is not worth it at all to bust out there.

[Smasharoo 0]

Have you not watched top-level poker players on TV make calls with less? Like I said, this was totally an exercise in reading. I thought, "I think this bet is fishy, I want to call and find out if my instincts are right." That's it. I think my thought process was correct, and that his all in was pretty ridiculous (he was nowhere near holding the nuts and he had no idea what I had). That's a stupid time to push all in and put up over 4 times the pot size to take it down.You're not playing on TV.Can you see why?That's right, you're not good enough.When you're playing on TV, make all the calls with middle pair, or J high or whatever you want and we'll all marvel at your poker instincts.Your play here still SUCKS.Did you guys not see Ted Forrest call with a pair of 2's in a 7-card stud game heads up??? You're not Ted Forrest. Ted Forrest is a brilliant poker player who's made millions playing in the harderst games in the world.When you've made millions playing in the toughest games in the world, your play will be brilliant. Right now, it sucks.That was INSANE. And he won. The other guy looked like he wanted a noose after Ted flipped his cards over. That is the difference between good players and champions. Forrest's read was correct, so he went with it. I thought mine was correct; it wasn't. I lost. Oh well, lesson learned. (Now if this game was live, obviously I'd remember this bet by him for months to come...unfortunately it was on the internet).Yes, your was wrong because your play sucks, Forrest's wasn't because he's a brilliant player.A pair of 6's with a board of 2 4 Q 5 is not that bad at all. Especially with a crazy bet thrown out there. A 3 on the river would have made my hand, a 6 would have made my hand. It was not as stupid as it seems.No, it's just as stupid as it seems. I realize that to you, having made the play and all, you have to sort of talk yourself into thinking it was close. It wasn't. It sucked amazingly. It was worse than taking a dump on a bingo card and deciding to call if the numbers covered added up to more than 100.But anyway, thanks for the advice. You too, smash, as I always write your advice down on post-its and hang them in my office at work. My co-workers come by and touch themselves while reading your nuggets of wisdom. Last thursday I had to take 20 minutes out of my time just to clean up after them. (That was after you posted the odds of getting dealt AA are equal to AK)If you're going to try and attack something I say, at least get it right.I said the odds of being dealt AA or KK are the same as being delt AK (unsuited).They are. Both are 110 to 1.Sorry if the math was confusinng for you.Try not to take the fact that your play sucks out on me, I didn't hold a gun to your head and make you make a mindnumbingly stupid call.You did that all on you own.

[Eskimo 0]

I think you should have raised preflop. The blinds are fairly big compared to your stack and i think a nice steal here would be the best move.

[MasterLJ 0]

Well, I think alot of newer poker players think that 2 pair and top pair are great hands to go all in with. I really don't think that most realize that you are ALWAYS in jeopardy when you do this simply because top pair high kicker or even top two pair can never be the nuts. That person holding pocket weenies might just hit a set and take out your two pair AK.That being said I'd have to say that especially at tight tables, it's a great idea to raise with any pocket pair. It's better to win the blinds, than to lose significantly, and if people are only averaging 25-35% of the flop, you are going to isolate yourself. If someone re-raises you, you may want to fold just then. If they call, they are probably on overcards and you will control the round after the flop unless it's monster for them.I can't tell you how many times in a NL game I've smashed up large pairs and pocket pairs with low connectors. Just today I won a monster hand with 56 os. I was cycling my play between aggressive and tight and a 3 dollar bet (at 0.5/1 NL table) reached me during aggressive play with a 56 os in front of me. I was feeling a little risky, and so I called. With several callers in the pot 243 flops. I just flopped the nuts and I know I'm going to get play. So with no delay (and because there were 2 spades on the flop) I went all-in for my entire bankroll. I got 2 callers and neither had any spades (not sure I did either). At any rate, I took the pot and alot of money.The point is, people will limp anywhere they can especially in NL games where the pay out is huge compared to spending a small percentage of chips to see the flop. Really isolate yourself when you have pocket pair. It seems to work. For one, a large raise gives you control of the hand. Most of the time I make a decent raise with low pocket pair, I can bluff at the pot since I control the hand, and I win. This option is not available to you if you simply call, since you didn't raise pre flop and showed no strength.

[wrto4556 0]

Look, bro...i'm only trying to help. Your play was horrible. Why on earth would you call with a pair of six'?!?! he could have any Q (e.g. KQ, QJ...etc.) two pair, a set, over-pair...Too much can beat you!!This is how I would have played it.Checked in the BB66 isn't a power house hand and should be played cautiously early in a tournament. Later it becomes a raising hand as the gap concept increases. But this early in the tournament you should just check and see a flop for cheap...hope you hit a set and rake a big pot.Check/Fold the FlopMedium and small pocket pairs and suited connectors are vulnerable hands. Texas Hold'em is all about big cards. So you should play the "no set no bet" rule. You didn't hit a set, you don't have anything, fold. If it's checked around on the flop and yall see the turn for free, good. You have another chance to hit your set. If it's not a six and someone bets, you should still fold. PS. "No Set--No Bet"

[JFarrell20 1]

Look, bro...i'm only trying to help. Your play was horrible. Why on earth would you call with a pair of six'?!?! he could have any Q (e.g. KQ, QJ...etc.) two pair, a set, over-pair...Too much can beat you!!This is how I would have played it.Checked in the BB66 isn't a power house hand and should be played cautiously early in a tournament. Later it becomes a raising hand as the gap concept increases. But this early in the tournament you should just check and see a flop for cheap...hope you hit a set and rake a big pot.Check/Fold the FlopMedium and small pocket pairs and suited connectors are vulnerable hands. Texas Hold'em is all about big cards. So you should play the "no set no bet" rule. You didn't hit a set, you don't have anything, fold. If it's checked around on the flop and yall see the turn for free, good. You have another chance to hit your set. If it's not a six and someone bets, you should still fold.  PS. "No Set--No Bet"

This is probably the worst advice I've ever gotten.You must be very timid at the table bro. There was only two other players in the pot and I already had an average pair. I do agree with most ppl on here that I should have probably raised pre-flop and tried to take it down. But to say that I should check/fold if the flop brings no 6 is just plain pu$$y-style. Sorry, but it is. Only one over-card comes on the flop and you want me to fold it if any bet is placed? That's not wise at all. Anyway we need to end this thread because nobody is listening to the fact that I said the whole play was an exercise in reading. The advice I was looking for was more along the lines of should I have thought my 6's were good after that crazy bet by him. Most say "No", that's fine. Let's move on. I get it. (Smash, I get it man, I suck at poker. If that is what you have to tell yourself, and if you have to degrade others' plays to feel good about yours then so be it). You say Ted Forrest called w/ 2's b/c he's a genius, well my hand was a lot better than 2's in that situation so it's really not a big deal. Any middle pair three-handed with no pre-flop raises is pretty damn strong. Get over yourselves. You've got to make ballsy calls once in a while to get to the top.

[wrto4556 0]

Keep playing the way you play, and tell me you win money. Risking your tournament life with 66 after you seen the flop. You weren't even short stacked. I was trying to be nice and give you sound advice. Your play sucked and if you think its's good I couldn't care less. Keep playing bad, and stay close minded. idiot.

[Smasharoo 0]

This is probably the worst advice I've ever gotten. Nah, I imagine at some point someone told you that you should play poker for money.

[wrto4556 0]

This is probably the worst advice I've ever gotten.  Nah, I imagine at some point someone told you that you should play poker for money.

ROFL!! Zing!!! oooohhhh.... BUURRRNNNN. ahahahaha

[JFarrell20 1]

Alright, my bad, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I can't have 2 people on here fighting with me. Smash is enough of a hassle.No hard feelings, wrt? I ain't mad, cuz my play might have sucked but the other 99/100 are pretty good, and I do make money.

[wrto4556 0]

Calling all in here, this early in the tournament, is -EV...so you could be making more money.

[The Student 0]

Yeah, I realize I should have probably raised pre-flop then bet more on the flop and probably get the 4's to fold.  Unfortunately I didn't.  I still think his move was strange to push 1100 more ontop of 250.  I was kind of using the tournament as an exercise in reading.  You see these guys on TV all the time calling with low pairs and they are actually GOOD! lol.  I really thought he was bluffing or at least on a draw and so I figured I'd call, regardless of my errors earlier in the hand.Thanks for the input though.  Follow-up:Both of you said I should have raised pre-flop with the 6's.  I'm not totally sold on this move for a couple reasons.  One, if the flop comes 10 A 8 and I'm first to act, what am I supposed to do?  I got two bettors behind me, clearly someone will bet here and if it's big enough, I probably can't call.  Secondly, I like the check here because if a 6 comes on the flop I can really nail them both (they would not suspect I am holding a set).Thanks

Well I'll answer the second point first, on hitting the 6 on the flop. If you bet out pre-flop and lets say get one caller, most likely with a good hand, this is were your exersize on reading should come in to decide what he has if he is calling in this situation, and the flop comes 6 10 Q rainbow giving you the set and putting you in a very good lead against A Q, A 10, and Q 10, all hands that you could put your opponent on. More times then not with pocket 6s you will get over cards with your set, and the bet pre flop got out all the hands that could hurt you if you dont hit your set and now you give them the opportunity to bet their big hand by checking your bigger hand, that would be a more effective trap.On the first point you will many times come on a flop of over cards. This will quickly turn your good starting hand to shit, but there are two thing you can do, check, giving them opportunity to bet their top pair and for you to lay down and play another hand, or (if you have the stack, which in your case you don't) put out a feeler bet to see how the other bettors act with the flop. They might be as scared as you are with an A on the board and will fold to a moderate bet, or they caught a big hand and an will re raise you letting you know what they have right off the bat, or they could jsut call and let you see maybe your set for a price that you got to pick. Even though you were a short stack you didnt have to win this hand, you could have bet out pre-flop and lost the lead against over cards and still get out of the hand with 750 or so.

[JFarrell20 1]

Good point. If I raise and get called pre-flop, and a 6 K A comes on the flop, I can really extract some money outta him.

[brian36lefty 0]

MTT NL Holdem SB: 25 BB: 50. I've got about 850 left. Average is like 1100. I get 6-6 in the BB (two callers ahead of me). I check. I like the check here...you are out of position and will be for the whole hand. Your hand is vulnerable to a couple of overs and with only 850 left, a raise of 200,followed by a bet on the flop of around 200-300, leaves you with a small stack...around 300-400. If you wanted to play very aggressive and raise (a large amount) to try and take the pot, that wouldn't be the worst play either.Flop comes 2 4 Q rainbow. I bet 50 (minimum bet). Guy calls, other guy folds. (Now we're heads up)I hate the minimum bet here. I think you should try to push a guy off of a small pair, a draw, or overs. Your hand is not that strong where you can afford to give essentially free cards by only betting the minimum. Try and take it down there with a good bet of 100 or so...while it may not seem like there is a big difference between 50 and 100, I believe the perceived difference in the bet is huge. It also tends to define the hand of your opponent. With a bet of only 50 an aggressive player would raise with almost any hand worth playing and to try to push you out of the pot (especially since you were in the blind and rate not to have a strong hand). Ask yourself, what would you do if he raised you, making it 200 or so to go? Turn comes a 5. I check. ( probably should have thrown out a weak lead again but anyway). Throw out a larger bet...a check there means 1 of 2 things I believe. 1. I am done withthis hand and will fold if you throw out a healthy bet. or 2. I hit the turn...2 pair, a straight, something like that and will check raise you for all my chips if you bet.Other guy pushes all in for like 1100 to go! Right away I assume I'm beat. Then I think about it more... why would he push all in here? I've only bet 50, then checked... he really has no idea what I'm holding right now. I figured he wouldn't push all in with just top pair... every hand I put him on I could not fathom why he'd push all in here (Is he on a draw? He must be semi-bluffing...) So I'm actually thinking my 6's are good. I call. He flips over 4's and 5's for two pair. WOW. WTF?! I'm out.Let's look at his bet...yes, it was an overbet. Let's look at what you can beat though. You thought he was on some time of draw. Look at the texture of the flop though. Q 4 2 rainbow...not the type of flop that lends itself to draws. 56 , A3 , A2, 45 could be possible hands ( I did not include 36, considering it less likely, but not totally out of the question). If he called the flop bet with 2 overs he could have hit a backdoor flush draw on the turn. In this scenario 2 overs with a flush draw gives him 13 outs and about a 30% chance to win.Recap now...board Q 4 2 ...turn 5.56- you have him dominatedA2- you have him beatA3- you are dominated45- you have 12 outs ( 2 6's 4 3's 3 2's and 3 Q's)Flush draw with 2 overs - 13 outs for himWhat about other hands. He could also have a set, higher hole pair, KQ, QJ, Q 10, A4, or A5. Most of these hands have you dominated. You have 100 stuck into a pot, are calling yourself all-in for 750 with 2nd pair, could be dominated, and are hoping he is on a draw (which he could win 30% of the time with a flush/overs draw). That is not a good recipe for surviving in a tournament and making money. The last thing to consider...your tournament life is at stake. Always consider that when you are playing in a tourney. Marginal calls you may make in a cash game are not always the best in a tournament where you could be eliminated. Wait for a better spot to put your money into the middle. That does not mean you should play scared, but simply choose a better spot early in the tournament.So after I had a little Hellmuthesque tantrum and I tell him that the 5 could have improved me to a straight or a set he says "Why do you think I went all in? I didnt want you to hit a set on the river". Ody-Ody-Ody..HUH!?!? There's 4 cards out there already and he's worried about the RIVER helping me? LOL. I told him he had no idea what I was holding, and with a 2-4-5 out there I could have just made my straight! "Why would you push all in with 2 pair?" I say. He replies, "Uhh, dude, two pairs is a good hand." HAHAHA. Anyway, he continued to tell me that his play was good (the pot was like 225 here and he puts 1100 on top of it. lol.). I think I was right to assume he was semi-bluffing and that my 6's were actually good here.What do you guys think? Would you have made his play? And I know my check on the turn was not good, but specifically I'm talking about his bet/my call. Thoughts please...I think you need to focus on your game more and worry less about the "horrible" plays others make. It is easy to see the flaws in an opponent's game and miss your own shortcomings. There is an article in the cardplayer archives about this topic. You need reflect on your play and be willing to learn from your mistakes. By posting on here and taking the constructive criticism from others, you are taking the first step.

[JFarrell20 1]

Brian, Great post, I mean people always give good advice on here, but you actually did your homework and spelled it all out. (I like the analysis of my outs here... that helps make it a little more obvious that the play was more marginal than people think. If the Q or 2 pairs on the board I've now got top two pair. Great point.This was your virgin post??? WOW. Can't wait to see what's to come from you Brian. Thanks for a thoughtful post. Everyone remembers their first post, and you should, too. This was great.

[Guest Anonymous]

We can agree that you should have been a little more aggressive with your sixes. I think when he pushes all in (very risky and questionable move by the way) you gotta put him on a Q at least. If you're thinking his bet was a little fishy then you would have to think it was a dumb play on his part. If this is the case you must be able to stop and realize that he will most likely make more dumb plays. You should have folded here and busted HIM later on when he made another dumb play against you when you're holding a stronger hand.