72 replies to this topic

[looshle]

Every knowledgable hold'em player knows that any pocket pair is favord against AK, even though its universally known as a coin flip. This is probably going to be more applicable to tournament play, as there are a lot more all-ins preflop. Let's say you raise a decent amount and somebody ahead of you goes all in for about 3X more than your raise. I understand the size of the blinds, chip stacks, position, and tons of other factors come into play, but would you rather have AK or 77 in this position? While 77 is favored over AK, what if your opponent is holding 99 or 10 10? If you're up against a higher pocket pair, you're a 4-1 dog. With, AK the only thing you are worried about are AA or KK, and even with KK, you're still not as bad as 4-1. My question is if playing AK more often than the 77 could be a smarter play, as the small percentage you are behind could be offset by the times you get into a pot being against higher pockets and being a 4:1 dog. This is a question of the long term, obviously if you know your opponent has AK and you have 77, you would call instantly, but its those times running into higher pockets that kill you.

[Scott31]

with a smaller pocket pair its too scary going all in not knowing if the other guy has a higher pocket pair.I agree. There's less guess work involved with Slick and you're going to be at a coin flip or better almost all of the time. With 77 in a tourney and shortstacked, I'm always thinking, am I 50/50 or 4-1....hmmmm...

[SLTS]

Well with most questions like this the answer is that it's all in the situation.I typically pitch A-K to most all ins. Simply because if you put them on a PP, ANY PP it is a losing situation for you in the long run. On the other hand if you don't believe they have a PP then I'll take the low pair.But for the most parts I avoid all ins with A-K and low PPs. Actually thinking about it, I tend to avoid all ins all together unless I'm sitting on AA-QQ.

[Munky]

Long run I'd say it's even. I've lost about as many pots as I've won against small PPs with AK. As far as AK against A10-AQ is concerned, I've won about %70-%80 of the time. It does suck, however, when someone pushes with A3 and the board comes something like 5 5 10 10 9. Waste of a great hand, splitting is better than losing though.

[diggitron1]

In his book, Doyle Brunson describes a running bet he had with two other players for $100 per hand. He would start with 22, and each of them would start with AK. The cards were then dealt randomly for each hand as if in normal play. He said he won so much money off them that they gave up after a couple of sessions. He concedes the math of it, but says (in shorthanded games) the small pair has more value. (Also, I concede that the holders of the AK would lose one of each of their outs to the other holder of the AK. But wouldn't this simulate real action where at least one other A and K would probably be out anyway in a ten handed game?)

[Karis13]

Just my 2 cents worth.....AK plays well multi-handed where 77 does not. Full table - I would rather have AK than 77. With all the possible overs on the flop and all the players in the hand, unless you hit trips, do you really want to stay in with 77.77 plays well short-handed where AK does not. Heads up - I would rather have 77 than AK. You need either an A or a K or, even less likely, a gut-shot draw to flop (QJ, Q-10, J-10, or 2-3-4).

[jayistheman]

i read doyle's analysis, but thats when the cards are flipped up and dealt out... its different when you dont know what the other player has... look at it this way..you move in with:22: best case : 50/50... worst case :4.5/1 dog77: best case : 50/50 worst case: 4.5/1 dogAK: best case : domination .... approx 75/25.. most common case: 50/50 worst case (pretty rare.. against AA) : about 88/12 dog.AK is usually way ahead or a coin flip. ill take those odds. AK is only dominated by AA and KK, or is freerolled by another AK (for a flush) ... a low pp is dominated by any higher pair, and is never a big favorite.an all in pre flop anyway...in a ring game, id probly still take AK, although a pair wins massive pots when it hits a set. it just looks prettier too...

[jayboogie]

AK is obviously the better hand. Are you going to call an all-in with 22? I don't think so. You have more options with AK than you do with low pocket pairs. With low pocket pairs, your usually just trying to pick up the blinds and you play it hard to do so. When you get called, at best your a slight favorite and at worst 4:1 dog to a higher pocket pair.

[Towery]

jayistheman said:

77: best case :  50/50   worst case: 4.5/1  dog

How is best case 50/50? (6-6,5-5, a-rag)

[Smasharoo]

AK is much much better multi-way.As stated previously, also it's much less likely to be a two outer hand than 77 is.

[rcrooks]

If we're playing NL Ill take the small pocket every time... implied odds my friend... Its pretty hard to get away from AK when you hit post flop, where as its easy to lay down the pair...Thus, any over cards or pockets will throw their money at you when you hit a set, otherwise you can fold

[SLTS]

jayboogie said:

AK is obviously the better hand.  Are you going to call an all-in with 22?  I don't think so.  .

right, but what knowledged player will call with A-K either? so your point is miscalculated. The point is odds favor the low pair for a reason...it will win you more money. Ya I'd rater hold A-K to an unknown all in...but I'm NOT going to call an all in anway? Why risk your game on a draw? The statistics are only brought into play if you have a read on your opponent, in which case if I know they have overs I'll take the pair.

[jayboogie]

SLTS said:

jayboogie said:

AK is obviously the better hand.  Are you going to call an all-in with 22?  I don't think so.  .

right, but what knowledged player will call with A-K either? so your point is miscalculated. The point is odds favor the low pair for a reason...it will win you more money. Ya I'd rater hold A-K to an unknown all in...but I'm NOT going to call an all in anway? Why risk your game on a draw? The statistics are only brought into play if you have a read on your opponent, in which case if I know they have overs I'll take the pair.

You'd never call an all-in with AK? What hands would you call an all-in with? AA, KK??? AK is about as good as it gets. The only hands your fearful of are AA and KK, anything else your a big favorite or slight dog. There will not be many situations where I fold AK pre-flop. I'm not sure how you can possibly win a tournament without calling all-ins with anything but pocket pairs or going all-in with anything but pocket pairs. That would probably be statistically impossible. Other players would run right over you playing this style.

[SLTS]

jayboogie said:

SLTS said:

jayboogie said:

AK is obviously the better hand.  Are you going to call an all-in with 22?  I don't think so.  .

right, but what knowledged player will call with A-K either? so your point is miscalculated. The point is odds favor the low pair for a reason...it will win you more money. Ya I'd rater hold A-K to an unknown all in...but I'm NOT going to call an all in anway? Why risk your game on a draw? The statistics are only brought into play if you have a read on your opponent, in which case if I know they have overs I'll take the pair.

You'd never call an all-in with AK? What hands would you call an all-in with? AA, KK??? AK is about as good as it gets. The only hands your fearful of are AA and KK, anything else your a big favorite or slight dog. There will not be many situations where I fold AK pre-flop. I'm not sure how you can possibly win a tournament without calling all-ins with anything but pocket pairs or going all-in with anything but pocket pairs. That would probably be statistically impossible. Other players would run right over you playing this style.

All in are poor moves that allow you to play poker without using post flop play. Have I NEVER called an all in with A-K, of course not. But I AVOID all in situations. I don't like NOT having control over a hand, when you go "all in" thats it. You're chips are in the pot, your faith are in the cards. The more you play the more experience you gain, the more experience you gain the more you realize you are better off out playing people after the flop than risking your stack on how the cards treat you. I rarely but all my chips in the faith of luck. I PLAY my hands, not push and pray.

[Smasharoo]

The more you play the more experience you gain, the more experience you gain the more you realize you are better off out playing people after the flop than risking your stack on how the cards treat you. I rarely but all my chips in the faith of luck. I PLAY my hands, not push and pray.The more you play the more you realize passing up profitable pre-flop situations is foolish.Just saying

[jayboogie]

SLTS said:

jayboogie said:

SLTS said:

jayboogie said:

AK is obviously the better hand.  Are you going to call an all-in with 22?  I don't think so.  .

right, but what knowledged player will call with A-K either? so your point is miscalculated. The point is odds favor the low pair for a reason...it will win you more money. Ya I'd rater hold A-K to an unknown all in...but I'm NOT going to call an all in anway? Why risk your game on a draw? The statistics are only brought into play if you have a read on your opponent, in which case if I know they have overs I'll take the pair.

You'd never call an all-in with AK? What hands would you call an all-in with? AA, KK??? AK is about as good as it gets. The only hands your fearful of are AA and KK, anything else your a big favorite or slight dog. There will not be many situations where I fold AK pre-flop. I'm not sure how you can possibly win a tournament without calling all-ins with anything but pocket pairs or going all-in with anything but pocket pairs. That would probably be statistically impossible. Other players would run right over you playing this style.

All in are poor moves that allow you to play poker without using post flop play. Have I NEVER called an all in with A-K, of course not. But I AVOID all in situations. I don't like NOT having control over a hand, when you go "all in" thats it. You're chips are in the pot, your faith are in the cards. The more you play the more experience you gain, the more experience you gain the more you realize you are better off out playing people after the flop than risking your stack on how the cards treat you. I rarely but all my chips in the faith of luck. I PLAY my hands, not push and pray.

Of course, but you need to factor in tournament conditions, how many chips do you have and etc. If your short stacked, how do you not call with AK? Now, if it's early of course not, it's foolish to do so. But, if it's getting close to being in the money and somebody goes all-in short stacked, you sense a steal, do you call? Of course, if you play to win, you'll call. If you play not to lose, sure fold it and squeeze into the money. About the only time I will not call an all-in for these situations is if theres 2 callers or I strongly sense the opponent has rockets and he has me covered or close to. I don't see how you can possibly gather up many chips if you never call all-ins pre-flop. If I knew somebody who never went all-in with anything but pocket pairs, I'd be pushing a whole lot to steal your blinds.

[SLTS]

jayboogie said:

SLTS said:

jayboogie said:

SLTS said:

jayboogie said:

AK is obviously the better hand.  Are you going to call an all-in with 22?  I don't think so.  .

right, but what knowledged player will call with A-K either? so your point is miscalculated. The point is odds favor the low pair for a reason...it will win you more money. Ya I'd rater hold A-K to an unknown all in...but I'm NOT going to call an all in anway? Why risk your game on a draw? The statistics are only brought into play if you have a read on your opponent, in which case if I know they have overs I'll take the pair.

You'd never call an all-in with AK? What hands would you call an all-in with? AA, KK??? AK is about as good as it gets. The only hands your fearful of are AA and KK, anything else your a big favorite or slight dog. There will not be many situations where I fold AK pre-flop. I'm not sure how you can possibly win a tournament without calling all-ins with anything but pocket pairs or going all-in with anything but pocket pairs. That would probably be statistically impossible. Other players would run right over you playing this style.

All in are poor moves that allow you to play poker without using post flop play. Have I NEVER called an all in with A-K, of course not. But I AVOID all in situations. I don't like NOT having control over a hand, when you go "all in" thats it. You're chips are in the pot, your faith are in the cards. The more you play the more experience you gain, the more experience you gain the more you realize you are better off out playing people after the flop than risking your stack on how the cards treat you. I rarely but all my chips in the faith of luck. I PLAY my hands, not push and pray.

Of course, but you need to factor in tournament conditions, how many chips do you have and etc. If your short stacked, how do you not call with AK? Now, if it's early of course not, it's foolish to do so. But, if it's getting close to being in the money and somebody goes all-in short stacked, you sense a steal, do you call? Of course, if you play to win, you'll call. If you play not to lose, sure fold it and squeeze into the money. About the only time I will not call an all-in for these situations is if theres 2 callers or I strongly sense the opponent has rockets and he has me covered or close to. I don't see how you can possibly gather up many chips if you never call all-ins pre-flop. If I knew somebody who never went all-in with anything but pocket pairs, I'd be pushing a whole lot to steal your blinds.

Well I agree in your situations there, if you are short stacked or it is a short stack pushing then you must call.I was talking about the people who call all ins against people who are average stack when you are averaged stack. Meaning if I'm dead average with 1200 and someone goes all in with 1100 I'm going to lay down my A-K. But if I'm average with 1200 and a short stack goes all in for 300 I'm calling no matter what I think they have. You are correct, but my post was directed to those who pick up A-K and go all in under any circumstances.In the post of yours I'm quoting I couldn't agree more. But it seems to be a recent trend to pick up A-K and go all in no matter what. I will never go all in with A-K if it will kill my decent stack, but under certain conditions (short stack, or vs short stack) I agree it is the right move everytime.

[VirginiaGent]

AK is a drawing hand and I'll take any pocket pair against it heads up. 22 will beat AK more than AK will draw out against it.AK is a great hand pre-flop, but it needs help when the cards fall.

[thrasher48]

Amazingly against 77 the best non-pair seems to be QJ suited or Q-10 suited. I have seen both of those bust up 77 on all-ins and the pokersavvy.com hand analyzer puts the QJ/Q-10 at 50.3% to win pre-flop.