Jump to content


reparations for slavery?


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 BigDMcGee

BigDMcGee

    Forum Entitlist

  • Members
  • 26,636 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:45 AM

What do you guys think? I think it's kinda crack pot, but I was talking to a friend in NYC, and I guess it's getting a ground swell support there. Wondering what ya'll thought
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
-Lebron James

#2 custom36

custom36

    FCP Veteran, Politico

  • Members
  • 16,157 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Wisconsin
  • Favorite Poker Game:Limit Hold'em

Posted 01 June 2005 - 11:15 AM

I think it's a crock, as do a number of black people in my community. While it's sad that it happened, slavery ended quite a while ago. That money can go to more important things anyway.

#3 avsfan

avsfan

    I don't know!

  • Members
  • 4,167 posts
  • Location:la

Posted 01 June 2005 - 11:44 AM

BigDMcGee said:

What do you guys think? I think it's kinda crack pot, but I was talking to a friend in NYC, and I guess it's getting a ground swell support there. Wondering what ya'll thought
I am ok with the idea. Here are my thoughts.1. The interned Japanese of world war 2 recieved reparations and a formal apology. 2. I dont feel the money should be paid to indviduals though. The money made very little diffrence to the Japanese. Some communities in the south need way more than money to buy things if we want to really change things there.3. A non-profit community based organizaton to help ppl and parts of the community still suffering from effects of slavery should be formed with reparations. The economic power to change things would be stronger than giving ppl money. Some enitity needs the finacial power to change the impacted parts of the communities context. Imho

"The aspiring one lives in Javel and me I was living in the spiral." -Marcel Duchamp

#4 DCWildcat

DCWildcat

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Kentucky

Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:19 PM

It violates too many legal precedents for me to feel ok with it. Here's a hypothetical with the same logic:Suppose the American legal system did not have a law against murder. Bob goes and kills Fred, and of course goes unpunished. 20 years later, legislation is written that makes murder illegal. Fred gets compensation later, at Bob's expense, though the action Bob undertook was 100% legal.By the same token, slavery was legal, then made illegal. Now others have to pay for performing actions completely in their own legal rights.Furthermore, those who didn't do the actions can't be punished. Suppose in my previous example that it was Bob's father who had murdered Fred--should Bob pay fines for what his father did before his time? No, that's absurd. While slavery was a cruel and awful practice, it was legal at the time, and the decendents of slaves should not receive compensation. I may be biased because I'm a decendent of Southern slaveholders, but I think the lack of logic supporting this is shocking; I'm surprised it's even an issue. I think it got their because of the emotions tied to it, and the eternal guilt many whites feel about events in the past that occurred completely beyond their control.

#5 mbreon

mbreon

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 3,482 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Grand Rapids, MI
  • Interests:Poker

Posted 04 June 2005 - 08:38 AM

It will never work....how can you make us pay now for something that was not illegal (albeit inhumane, immoral, and just plain terrible) at the time? What did we ever give back to the American Indians after all we did to them? A few casinos?

#6 BigDMcGee

BigDMcGee

    Forum Entitlist

  • Members
  • 26,636 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 June 2005 - 02:13 PM

When genocide was not illegal ( albeit immoral and inhumane). Please.The legality of slavery is NOT the issue. You give reparations 'cause of what happened to the Millions and Millions of slaves was intensely wrong, and we as a nation wrong a whole race of people, killing and enslaving millions. The fact that is was legal is the REASON we would give reparations, to undo the harm done by slavery. Now, I'm not sure that reparations are likely, and I'm not sure what form they should take. But to say that because, well, it was rong, but it was the law.. whacha gonna do? Is ludacris.As for the native American, I think their case for reparations is even stronger from a legal standpoint, since the united states broke treaty after treaty with them. The Native American certainly has a case for Reparations, and because they have one, it doesn't nullify the possible need for reparations for slavery.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
-Lebron James

#7 JaysonWeber

JaysonWeber

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 3,665 posts
  • Location:Green Bay
  • Interests:Poker, who woulda thought.

Posted 04 June 2005 - 02:35 PM

There already is reperations for Slavery... I think they call it "Race-Preferred College Admission"
"Here are my rules: what can be done with one substance must never be done with another. No two materials are alike. No two sites on earth are alike. No two buildings have the same purpose. The purpose, the site, the material determine the shape. Nothing can be reasonable or beautiful unless its made by one central idea, and the idea sets every detail. A building is alive, like a man." - The Fountainhead.

#8 princeof56k

princeof56k

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,520 posts
  • Location:houston, tx

Posted 04 June 2005 - 02:37 PM

Here's why I dont like reparations, my family didnt have anything to do with slavery in the USA. My grandparents all immigrated here around the 1930's or 1940's from Mexico and Panama. Why should I have to pay for something my family had no part of. And what of all the immagrants who have come here in the last 10 years or so? Should they be forced to pay reparations? Im my opinion, no.Listens, slavery was terrible, but I just dont see how you could do reparations now. Who should pay and who should get money? I just dont see how you are going to do this.

#9 BigDMcGee

BigDMcGee

    Forum Entitlist

  • Members
  • 26,636 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 June 2005 - 02:45 PM

Was or wasn't here when slavery happened in no way absolves the NATION of the United states from respondsiblity, is the point. You are a citizen of a nation that once caused a great harm against a people. A harm that still manifests itself today. This sin't about "punishing you" for something your family did or didn't do. This is about trying to right a historical wrong ( which I don't even know is possible) that Our nation did.And race prefered Admissions!!! Oh, that solves everything. That makes up for the millions of dead and enslaved, the crippling of an entire race for 150 years post slavery. Northwestern had racial prefered admissions.. know what the percentage of black students at My college? one percent. You're a little young for Angry White Man syndrome, Jason.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
-Lebron James

#10 princeof56k

princeof56k

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,520 posts
  • Location:houston, tx

Posted 04 June 2005 - 03:08 PM

BigDMcGee said:

Was or wasn't here when slavery happened in no way absolves the NATION of the United states from respondsiblity, is the point. You are a citizen of a nation that once caused a great harm against a people. A harm that still manifests itself today. This sin't about "punishing you" for something your family did or didn't do. This is about trying to right a historical wrong ( which I don't even know is possible) that Our nation did.
Many nations have done historical wrongs: France, Spain, the Romans. The list is endless. When does it stop. Should these other nations have to pay up for what they did. Slavery was outlawed 150 years ago. I think who was or wasnt responsible is the point. This is not the same country it was 150 years ago. And the reperations given will in no way ease any pain about what was done long ago. What exactly would reperations accomplish?

#11 avsfan

avsfan

    I don't know!

  • Members
  • 4,167 posts
  • Location:la

Posted 04 June 2005 - 03:40 PM

princeof56k said:

BigDMcGee said:

Was or wasn't here when slavery happened in no way absolves the NATION of the United states from respondsiblity, is the point. You are a citizen of a nation that once caused a great harm against a people. A harm that still manifests itself today. This sin't about "punishing you" for something your family did or didn't do. This is about trying to right a historical wrong ( which I don't even know is possible) that Our nation did.
Many nations have done historical wrongs: France, Spain, the Romans. The list is endless. When does it stop. Should these other nations have to pay up for what they did. Slavery was outlawed 150 years ago. I think who was or wasnt responsible is the point. This is not the same country it was 150 years ago. And the reperations given will in no way ease any pain about what was done long ago. What exactly would reperations accomplish?
We are talking about The United States of America.Reperatons to individuals at best makes them feel good and boosts the economy. I don't like paying reperatiions to indivduals.I feel That non-profit oragnizations can best affect contextual change in communities. I am not talking about inner city ghetto communities here but about the rural communties that are haunted by slavery. I feel alot of Ghettos are more social city problems.I also agree with BigD that the native american communities are deserving of reperations. I also feel reperations are best used here in a non-profit organization designed to rebuild native communities.As far as affirmative action goes. The Ppl who live in communties that are still affected by slavery are not the ones getting into college from affirmative action. It is the ppl who escaped those communties who mainly utillize affirmative action.Imho.

"The aspiring one lives in Javel and me I was living in the spiral." -Marcel Duchamp

#12 BigDMcGee

BigDMcGee

    Forum Entitlist

  • Members
  • 26,636 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 June 2005 - 03:46 PM

princeof56k said:

BigDMcGee said:

Was or wasn't here when slavery happened in no way absolves the NATION of the United states from respondsiblity, is the point. You are a citizen of a nation that once caused a great harm against a people. A harm that still manifests itself today. This sin't about "punishing you" for something your family did or didn't do. This is about trying to right a historical wrong ( which I don't even know is possible) that Our nation did.
Many nations have done historical wrongs: France, Spain, the Romans. The list is endless. When does it stop. Should these other nations have to pay up for what they did. Slavery was outlawed 150 years ago. I think who was or wasnt responsible is the point. This is not the same country it was 150 years ago. And the reperations given will in no way ease any pain about what was done long ago. What exactly would reperations accomplish?
Okay, first off, Italy is not the Roman Empire. Second off, I think the colonial Powers like France and Spain do have some repsondsibly to the places the wrecked, enslaved and exploited. Third, what reparations would do would is this.. this is the theroy behind it. (in a huge nutshell) Slavery caused blacks in this country to start from an economicl and social level FAR below any other group of people in the country. After Slavery was lifted, blacks were very very poor, and very very uneducated. In the post Slavery period, there were alot of plans to help bring the black people along, but back lash from the southern whites and urban white poor caused the government to back way from these programs. Jim Crow laws through out the south were enacted to keep blacks in this very low level of wealth and education. The Civil rights movement help put blacks in this country on an equal legal standing with whites, which should have happened after slavery.Now, while blacks no had an equal standing, the ECONOMIC effect of slavery is still here to this day. Blacks in this country were placed in a position so low in the coutnry, so empoverished, that this poverty has inertia. If you're born into poverty, unless you are very smart or very lucky, or both, you're going to die in poverty. Generation after Generation of black person in this country has been on average poorer and less educated than their white counterparts. The idea of Reparations is to counterbalance this inequity. Basically, I think reparations should be in the form of education, and inverstment in black commmunities across the country. I think flat payments are foolish. And really, I think the odds of reparations happening are about 1000000 to 1. But that doesn't change the reality, that slavery, even though it ended 150 years ago, still has an economic and social impact on black people in this country to this very day.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
-Lebron James

#13 DCWildcat

DCWildcat

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Kentucky

Posted 04 June 2005 - 07:05 PM

You have some serious logical flaws in your argument.

BigDMcGee said:

as or wasn't here when slavery happened in no way absolves the NATION of the United states from respondsiblity, is the point. You are a citizen of a nation that once caused a great harm against a people. A harm that still manifests itself today. This sin't about "punishing you" for something your family did or didn't do. This is about trying to right a historical wrong
What defines a historical wrong? Should Spain give reparations to every non-Catholic in the country for the insquisition? Should Russia give it to every Jew who lives in Russia? What about those who live in former Satellites?Suppose you can define a historical wrong. Can the government be expected to reimburse every historical wrong that occurred? Taft didn't do shit about the woeful inadequacies of the American economy in the early 20th century. Action on his part could have done a great deal to mitigate the effects of the Great Depression. Should his family give money to 1/4 of the country (the decendents of those who were at one time unemployed during the Depression)? Should the other 3/4 of the country be taxed because he ****ed up? For the Indians? What about every Irish, Italian, and Chinese-American family, whose ancestors were legallydenied work well into the 19th century? I could go on forever.My point in showing all those examples is this: there are an infinite amount of, as you put them, "historical wrongs" that have occurred as part of U.S. policy, and we can't pay them all back. The only way we could pay restitution for some, then, would be to make such decisions degree-based; i.e., "this historical wrong is "wronger" than that one." But how can you possibly measure something like that? What criteria could you use? This is the main flaw in your argument.In short: you cannot punish the government for every mistake it has made; that would result in an infinite amount of restitution. Thus, the only way you could provide any resititution (fairly), would be to decide on degrees for such things. This is impossible. So it's logically impossible to do this.

#14 avsfan

avsfan

    I don't know!

  • Members
  • 4,167 posts
  • Location:la

Posted 04 June 2005 - 07:32 PM

American Solidarity.

"The aspiring one lives in Javel and me I was living in the spiral." -Marcel Duchamp

#15 Abbaddabba

Abbaddabba

    breaking even like it's 1999

  • Members
  • 5,225 posts

Posted 05 June 2005 - 12:25 PM

Quote

Was or wasn't here when slavery happened in no way absolves the NATION of the United states from respondsiblity, is the point. You are a citizen of a nation that once caused a great harm against a people. A harm that still manifests itself today. This sin't about "punishing you" for something your family did or didn't do. This is about trying to right a historical wrong ( which I don't even know is possible) that Our nation did.
The NATION receives the hypothetical dollars from TAXPAYING CITIZENS. In many, if not the majority of those cases, they benefited in no significant way from the slave trade. I certainly didnt, nor did anyone in my family; neither directly nor indirectly (im canadian, but the same would be true of many american individuals in the same position). To suggest that the nation as a whole, and by extension the tax paying public should be in some way obligated to repay distant relatives of those who suffered, is absurd. There are individual cases where you likely can pin responsibility on heirs to a families wealth. Good luck with enforcing that.

#16 JustinHEMI04

JustinHEMI04

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 147 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam, NY
  • Interests:Outdoors, ATVing, sky diving, poker.

Posted 05 June 2005 - 05:55 PM

No reparations should not be paid. Nor should the Indians who if anyone, would have a right to any money paid. First of all, someone keeps saying millions and millions of blacks enslaved and killed. I think your numbers are a little off there. Secondly, why stop at slaves?? Why not pay Japan for nuking the shit out of them? Because, it was war and people die. Why pay the Indians? So the US took their land. Get over it. So some blacks were enslaved. Shitty deal? yes, but get over it already. No one is saying our nation hasn't done some ****ed up things in the past. But we have since grown and learned from our mistakes. Quit digging up the past and get over it. None of these people that want reparations, want them for anything other than to continue their unending dependence on government hand outs. I am not trying to belittle the plight of anyone at all... really... but it is truely getting old and getting out of control. There are very few if anyone around anymore that was directly involved with any of this. Why should their decendents get a damn red cent? Sorry if I sound terrible, I really am not. I have plenty of friends of all colors races creed sexuality. I am just saying what others are thinking. But that won't stop my flaming for sure. But I don't care. I have had enough. *I* the average white male is getting the short end of the stick these days and I am sick of it. I am sick of being blamed for everyone elses problems.Justin
A dollar won is twice as sweet as a dollar earned.

#17 BigDMcGee

BigDMcGee

    Forum Entitlist

  • Members
  • 26,636 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 June 2005 - 06:52 PM

JustinHEMI04 said:

No reparations should not be paid. Nor should the Indians who if anyone, would have a right to any money paid. First of all, someone keeps saying millions and millions of blacks enslaved and killed. I think your numbers are a little off there. Secondly, why stop at slaves?? Why not pay Japan for nuking the censored out of them? Because, it was war and people die. Why pay the Indians? So the US took their land. Get over it. So some blacks were enslaved. censored deal? yes, but get over it already. No one is saying our nation hasn't done some censored up things in the past. But we have since grown and learned from our mistakes. Quit digging up the past and get over it. None of these people that want reparations, want them for anything other than to continue their unending dependence on government hand outs. I am not trying to belittle the plight of anyone at all... really... but it is truely getting old and getting out of control. There are very few if anyone around anymore that was directly involved with any of this. Why should their decendents get a damn red cent? Sorry if I sound terrible, I really am not. I have plenty of friends of all colors races creed sexuality. I am just saying what others are thinking. But that won't stop my flaming for sure. But I don't care. I have had enough. *I* the average white male is getting the short end of the stick these days and I am sick of it. I am sick of being blamed for everyone elses problems.Justin
Who keeps the metric system down. We Do... We Do.Frankly I'm shocked that someone who's a member of a all white fraternal organization would have a take like this.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
-Lebron James

#18 JustinHEMI04

JustinHEMI04

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 147 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam, NY
  • Interests:Outdoors, ATVing, sky diving, poker.

Posted 05 June 2005 - 07:06 PM

BigDMcGee said:

JustinHEMI04 said:

No reparations should not be paid. Nor should the Indians who if anyone, would have a right to any money paid. First of all, someone keeps saying millions and millions of blacks enslaved and killed. I think your numbers are a little off there. Secondly, why stop at slaves?? Why not pay Japan for nuking the censored out of them? Because, it was war and people die. Why pay the Indians? So the US took their land. Get over it. So some blacks were enslaved. censored deal? yes, but get over it already. No one is saying our nation hasn't done some censored up things in the past. But we have since grown and learned from our mistakes. Quit digging up the past and get over it. None of these people that want reparations, want them for anything other than to continue their unending dependence on government hand outs. I am not trying to belittle the plight of anyone at all... really... but it is truely getting old and getting out of control. There are very few if anyone around anymore that was directly involved with any of this. Why should their decendents get a damn red cent? Sorry if I sound terrible, I really am not. I have plenty of friends of all colors races creed sexuality. I am just saying what others are thinking. But that won't stop my flaming for sure. But I don't care. I have had enough. *I* the average white male is getting the short end of the stick these days and I am sick of it. I am sick of being blamed for everyone elses problems.Justin
Who keeps the metric system down. We Do... We Do.Frankly I'm shocked that someone who's a member of a all white fraternal organization would have a take like this.
Shows what you know about them. It isn't all white.Justin
A dollar won is twice as sweet as a dollar earned.

#19 HtotheNootch

HtotheNootch

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,294 posts

Posted 05 June 2005 - 10:12 PM

Dumbest idea ever!

#20 BigDMcGee

BigDMcGee

    Forum Entitlist

  • Members
  • 26,636 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 June 2005 - 02:07 AM

JustinHEMI04 said:

BigDMcGee said:

JustinHEMI04 said:

No reparations should not be paid. Nor should the Indians who if anyone, would have a right to any money paid. First of all, someone keeps saying millions and millions of blacks enslaved and killed. I think your numbers are a little off there. Secondly, why stop at slaves?? Why not pay Japan for nuking the censored out of them? Because, it was war and people die. Why pay the Indians? So the US took their land. Get over it. So some blacks were enslaved. censored deal? yes, but get over it already. No one is saying our nation hasn't done some censored up things in the past. But we have since grown and learned from our mistakes. Quit digging up the past and get over it. None of these people that want reparations, want them for anything other than to continue their unending dependence on government hand outs. I am not trying to belittle the plight of anyone at all... really... but it is truely getting old and getting out of control. There are very few if anyone around anymore that was directly involved with any of this. Why should their decendents get a damn red cent? Sorry if I sound terrible, I really am not. I have plenty of friends of all colors races creed sexuality. I am just saying what others are thinking. But that won't stop my flaming for sure. But I don't care. I have had enough. *I* the average white male is getting the short end of the stick these days and I am sick of it. I am sick of being blamed for everyone elses problems.Justin
Who keeps the metric system down. We Do... We Do.Frankly I'm shocked that someone who's a member of a all white fraternal organization would have a take like this.
Shows what you know about them. It isn't all white.Justin
You a member of the Scottish Rite? "cause here's a news flash, they are all white




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users