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Charity Tournament For Bryan Micon


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#41 BigDMcGee

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 09:40 AM

I don't know that revelations quotes would mean much to a jewish fella.
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#42 DealerNate

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 01:34 PM

So much venom you guys! Dial it back a notch, k? I also hear some interesting and valid points, so I'll try to respond.

View PostBigDMcGee, on 04 June 2015 - 11:02 PM, said:

You're a poker dealing friend of Micons, who knows enough about Micon's poker dealings to know Micon went HAM on DN's cult, but you don't know who his former NWP partner, Todd Witteles is? Seriously?

That's correct. I've only know him since 2012, so it's not like we grew up together. That said, I've been observing his behavior fairly closely since then and I think I have a pretty good read on him. Except for what I've read on Donkdown, I know zippy zap about Choice Center.

View PostDavid_Sklansky, on 05 June 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

I don't think you have an accurate perception of Keynan poverty.

I fully concede my ignorance on this topic. Maybe Ethiopia will be good for him. He does need to lose some weight.

View PostScroom, on 04 June 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:


... your plan is unrealistic, its a massive flop waiting to happen and Micon isn't getting 30 years (he will likely get something, but not anywhere near a full barrel sentencing.) ...

Sure it could be a flop, but so what? Worst case scenario, I get zero players, which is precisely what I'd get if I did nothing at all. So what's the downside? Plus, I don't like standing by while good people get thrown under the bus.

View PostSpademan, on 04 June 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

Well then he shouldn't have broken the law, and instead of worked to get the law changed while not... breaking the law.

What I hear you saying is that what Micon did was technically illegal and practically stupid. I get that. I'm not qualified to comment on the legal stuff, but I agree with you on a practical level.

But for the sake of clear thought, let's separate out the legal, practical, and moral aspects of this situation.

Micon definitely miscalculated the risks vs. benefits of the whole bitcoin poker enterprise, especially while living in Las Vegas. I agree. The Nevada mafia has always tried to shut down the competition. So I concede the practical and legal arguments. But as a friend, I personally only care about the moral argument.

Suppose a mugger sticks a gun into your ribs and asks for your wallet, OK? On a practical level, what's the smart thing to do? Hand over your wallet, right? Why? Because he's pointing a gun at you. But at the same time, you recognize the situation as morally illegitimate. You have no moral obligation to hand over your wallet.

View PostSpademan, on 04 June 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

No it isn't (like selling a bag of weed). For many different reasons. Further, the weed laws are changing because people are changing them. Selling weed before it becomes legal does not make you a hero, it makes you an idiot.

Well, both are examples of victimless crimes. As a general moral principle, I accept that real crimes require at least one victim. In the case of selling a bag of weed, we're talking about a voluntary transacation between a willing buyer and a willing seller. As long as the seller doesn't misrepresent the product or engage in fraud, there's no crime. No victim = no crime. Now of course, politicians can write down on paper that selling a bag of weed is a crime. But I agrue that all such laws are morally illegitimate. But maybe you disagree with my moral principle? OK fine, but then what priciples are you operating from? If you just say that right and wrong = whatever the government says. Well, I think that's a terrible principle. You're bascially admitting that you have no moral rudder whatsoever.

View PostEssay21, on 05 June 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Fvck you and your moral conundrum, ****

No conundrum. It's a provisional judgement based on limited information. That's what poker players do.
"Let the haters hate. Let the players play." -Micon
How about you be a player?

#43 David_Sklansky

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 01:53 PM

Starvation and malnutrition in upper-tier African nations is mostly a function of childhood disease. Joke all you want, but Ethiopia is the ideal place for Micon right now, assuming coffee is a priority, and aggressive ignorance and racism aren't going to earn him a lot of support. He needs all the allies he can get.
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#44 BigDMcGee

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 02:07 PM

Listen, Micon, I want to be clear, I have no venom towards you., I've always rooted for you and I've felt that you were always your own worst enemy, and the general venom towards you at NWP/DD by much of your userbase was unwarranted. Shout out to Martha, btw. /\/\-Squad 4 Lyfe.

Also, I understand that you've been advised to stay off social media by your lawyer, and you're sort of pot committed into this whole "DealerNate" persona. But each word you write, convinces me more that Dealer Nate= Micon. The only other possibility is that you're a troll, doing a very good Micon impression while denying to be micon. If so, I tip my hat to you, but you should have PM'd me from the get go so I wouldn't queer your action.

Instead of writing more Micon-style rhetoric, I would instead post verifiable information about yourself, to prove that you are indeed a separate person, a person with a reputation we can trust. Because, above and beyond all the other reasons why this is a dumb idea that no one is interested in, absolutely NO one is going to trust a utter Anon with 5 posts to run and organize any kind of charitable activity. You understand that, right?
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#45 David_Sklansky

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 02:14 PM

View PostBigDMcGee, on 06 June 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

Listen, Micon, I want to be clear, I have no venom towards you., I've always rooted for you and I've felt that you were always your own worst enemy, and the general venom towards you at NWP/DD by much of your userbase was unwarranted. Shout out to Martha, btw. /\/\-Squad 4 Lyfe.

Also, I understand that you've been advised to stay off social media by your lawyer, and you're sort of pot committed into this whole "DealerNate" persona. But each word you write, convinces me more that Dealer Nate= Micon. The only other possibility is that you're a troll, doing a very good Micon impression while denying to be micon. If so, I tip my hat to you, but you should have PM'd me from the get go so I wouldn't queer your action.

Instead of writing more Micon-style rhetoric, I would instead post verifiable information about yourself, to prove that you are indeed a separate person, a person with a reputation we can trust. Because, above and beyond all the other reasons why this is a dumb idea that no one is interested in, absolutely NO one is going to trust a utter Anon with 5 posts to run and organize any kind of charitable activity. You understand that, right?

This. I think the reason we are messing around and being silly is that this feels kind of silly. I was never really a NWP/DD poster, but always liked Micon and his radio shows, and I doubt anyone in the poker world thinks it's a positive thing for him to be punished. But I'm not going to take this seriously if he doesn't.
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#46 BigDMcGee

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 02:14 PM

Also, I'm not sure if this thread was started in Off-Topic, or got moved here, but you should know basically no one reads this forum except for like 8 regulars ( and now Todd, of course. Hi Todd!)


I can speak for all 8 of us regulars and none of us are going to donate to this cause. Well, maybe Sklansky will, he's the charitable sort, but that's about it. Daniel certainly doesn't read this forum, and if you want him to be interested in anything you say, you better tfire up an intense passion for hockey and head over to that forum.

I guess what i'm saying is, there have to be more efficient uses of your Micon-shilling time, than arguing your cause on a dead forum. This place is a half step up from Skatz at this point.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
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"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
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#47 Spademan

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 08:38 PM

View PostBigDMcGee, on 04 June 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

You know Sklanksky = Dirty Dutch, right? Normally I'd let someone who stepped on one of Dutch's tiger traps just skewer themselves but I've got too much respect for you and the history of this forum to stand by and watch you do it.

Yeah, I knew it was him, and yes, I knew it might be a "joke". Neither mattered, it was stupid either way.

"Tiger trap". pfft, ****ing please.

View PostDealerNate, on 06 June 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Suppose a mugger sticks a gun into your ribs and asks for your wallet, OK? On a practical level, what's the smart thing to do? Hand over your wallet, right? Why? Because he's pointing a gun at you. But at the same time, you recognize the situation as morally illegitimate. You have no moral obligation to hand over your wallet.

First, this is a poor example because of who you're speaking to specifically. The smart thing for me to do isn't the same as the smart thing for someone else to do, because I'm dangerous as shit, and not in the internet tough guy way, but in the there are dead people in real life kind of way.

But the bigger issue is just the quality of the analogy itself. The mugger is, by all definitions, to nearly all people, the one doing something illegal and immoral in your analogy. Associating the victim with the person doing the illegal, and to many, immoral activity in real life is muddy and poorly constructed.

View PostDealerNate, on 06 June 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Well, both are examples of victimless crimes. As a general moral principle, I accept that real crimes require at least one victim. In the case of selling a bag of weed, we're talking about a voluntary transacation between a willing buyer and a willing seller. As long as the seller doesn't misrepresent the product or engage in fraud, there's no crime. No victim = no crime. Now of course, politicians can write down on paper that selling a bag of weed is a crime. But I agrue that all such laws are morally illegitimate. But maybe you disagree with my moral principle? OK fine, but then what priciples are you operating from? If you just say that right and wrong = whatever the government says. Well, I think that's a terrible principle. You're bascially admitting that you have no moral rudder whatsoever.

This is dumb.

At no point did I claim that any particular law is moral or immoral. Nor did I imply any such thing.

I do not find using or selling weed immoral. Nor poker. Nor prostitution for that matter. Or abortion. Or gay people getting married. Or stem cell research.

What I do claim is that running a prostitution ring, a gambling site, or slinging dime-sacs are stupid ways to make a living unless or until you can do them without risking going to prison.

Further, there is a distinction between risking going to prison in response to persecutions of people for who they are, and risking going to prison to make money doing something that the society in which you live currently considers a vice, by choice. I am not saying MLK and Harriet Tubman were stupid for breaking "laws" for social reasons.

I am saying that Micon running gambling stuff, or Jim selling joints out of his bedroom window are not ****ing MLK or Harriet Tubman. They are two dudes trying to make money doing something while it is illegal, rather than getting the law changed. They are not social heroes, they are bad at navigating life.

I don't even dislike Micon. My only experience with him was smashing his forum in poker when they came a-shit-talking some time years ago. He took the beatings well.

His choices in this matter were still stupid.
'"Luck" is people taking the laws of probability personally; Luck is the excitement of bad math.'

#48 Spademan

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 08:40 PM

double
'"Luck" is people taking the laws of probability personally; Luck is the excitement of bad math.'

#49 BigDMcGee

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 12:56 AM

I'm don't think committing crimes to make money is de facto stupid. Many fortunes have been made committing crimes. Its just a risk/reward evaluation. Is this risk of prison worth the chance of wealth? For some no amount of money is worth the slightest chance of imprisionment. Im not going to judge a man for tossing those dice, particularly for a crime who's illegality I think is nonsense. I will, however, judge the odds he's laying on that toss. Running a poker site in Nevada is, well, high risk. Should a man with a family be more risk adverse? Probably so. I don't think its results oriented to second guess the ways these crimes were commmitted. Just living in another state would have drawn less heat, and living in Antigua in the first place probably would have been safest still.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
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"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
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#50 Spademan

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 01:14 AM

View PostBigDMcGee, on 07 June 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

I'm don't think committing crimes to make money is de facto stupid. Many fortunes have been made committing crimes. Its just a risk/reward evaluation. Is this risk of prison worth the chance of wealth? For some no amount of money is worth the slightest chance of imprisionment.

Yeah, I'm fine with this qualification. It's a different matter if we're talking about some wall street type breaking laws for millions of dollars, knowing that if he were caught he'd get a light club med stint if anything at all, in terms of being stupid.

Dreadful and sociopathic, maybe, but not stupid. If Micon was pulling in 500k a year or something, and can keep it, that might be a defense against my "stupid" accusation.

However,

View PostBigDMcGee, on 07 June 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

Im not going to judge a man for tossing those dice.

When someone is in here pleading his case using things like "he has kids", **** that. All the more reason to judge.
'"Luck" is people taking the laws of probability personally; Luck is the excitement of bad math.'

#51 BigDMcGee

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 08:28 AM

Oh no question. I think holding up Micon's child as a reason we should support him is sleazy. The child should have been in the equation for Micon in the first place, when he chose to run an online gambling site in the one place on earth most hostile to online gambling. While I might not judge a man's willingness to shoot the dice on a crime for payoff gamble, I certainly don't think losing that dice roll makes you a sympathetic candidate for charity. Micon is in the position he's in based on choices and gambles he made. I can't imagine why I'd want to subsidize his -ev gambling, on either the tables or in life.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
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"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
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#52 DealerNate

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 10:48 AM

View PostBigDMcGee, on 06 June 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

Instead of writing more Micon-style rhetoric, I would instead post verifiable information about yourself, to prove that you are indeed a separate person, a person with a reputation we can trust. Because, above and beyond all the other reasons why this is a dumb idea that no one is interested in, absolutely NO one is going to trust a utter Anon with 5 posts to run and organize any kind of charitable activity. You understand that, right?

I hear that. If it matters in terms of participation, I can privately contact you with my info. I only ask that you don't share it with the haters, as I generally perfer to stay in the background and observe from a distance. I'm really not the right guy to be organizing this, but nobody else seems to be picking up the ball right now.

View PostDavid_Sklansky, on 06 June 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Joke all you want, but Ethiopia is the ideal place for Micon right now, assuming coffee is a priority, and aggressive ignorance and racism aren't going to earn him a lot of support. He needs all the allies he can get.

Yes he does. Jamaica might also be a good option due to the abundance of both coffee and weed. Last I heard, visitors could take up to 1 pound of pure Jamaican bud off the island with no questions asked. Plus, Jamaicans tend to be super laid back and friendly, so I think he'd fit right in. Something else to consider is that Jamaica isn't that far from Antigua, so he could probably just hop on a small sailboat or something and drift on over (hint, hint).

View PostSpademan, on 06 June 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

The smart thing for me to do isn't the same as the smart thing for someone else to do, because I'm dangerous as shit, and not in the internet tough guy way, but in the there are dead people in real life kind of way.
C'mon. You're going to karate chop somebody with a gun in your ribs, tough guy? Real tough guys use their strength to protect the innocent and persecute the genuinely guilty. They don't dump on peaceful and good natured people like Micon.

View PostSpademan, on 06 June 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

His choices in this matter were still stupid.

Okay, but stupid != criminal. Do you think he should spend the next 8-20 years in a cage? Doesn't he still deserve a good legal defense?

Also, businesses like that take a lot of work and provide a lot of value. You don't just turn on the software and watch money pour in. Micon did a lot of good detective work and busted up a whole bunch of online collusion rings, for example. On three separate occasions my account was credited out of the blue after he caught people doing stuff like that.

Guys with integrity in this business are about as rare as a four-leafed clover. So I vote with my dollars and support them.

View PostBigDMcGee, on 07 June 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

The child should have been in the equation for Micon in the first place, when he chose to run an online gambling site in the one place on earth most hostile to online gambling....

Okay, but keep in mind that Micon was already involved with SWC long before his kid was even born. And for the record, I don't think he really ran everything. On several occasions, I remember him saying something about management not agreeing with some of his decisions. In any case, he obviously had a lot of help.

#53 Spademan

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 04:44 PM

View PostDealerNate, on 08 June 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

C'mon. You're going to karate chop somebody with a gun in your ribs, tough guy?

Karate chop...

lol.

There is a reason any relatively well trained police officer or soldier knows better than to hold a gun against someone's body, especially the front. Since I've trained as both, I'm familiar with the reason quite intimately.

View PostDealerNate, on 08 June 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Real tough guys use their strength to protect the innocent and persecute the genuinely guilty. They don't dump on peaceful and good natured people like Micon.

This is funny on so many levels, and again because of who you are saying it to, I can't even unpack it for you.

View PostDealerNate, on 08 June 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Okay, but stupid != criminal.

No, it doesn't.

But what you're failing to understand is that criminal != immoral, and despite that fact we must navigate society in certain ways, and fight certain fights accordingly.

View PostDealerNate, on 08 June 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Do you think he should spend the next 8-20 years in a cage?

I don't know the specifics of the case, but probably not. But he should have fucking considered that as he was committing his crime.

View PostDealerNate, on 08 June 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Doesn't he still deserve a good legal defense?

This goes back to the earlier distinction made about risk/reward in regard to stupidity.

If he were making enough to justify the risk, he wouldn't need any help paying for a good legal defense.

----

Disclaimer: I have graduated the police academy, and am certified to be a cop, but I am not a cop, and probably will never apply to be a cop. I did it for fun and because I got paid for the training by the GI bill.
'"Luck" is people taking the laws of probability personally; Luck is the excitement of bad math.'

#54 BigDMcGee

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 04:48 PM

Pig
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
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#55 BigDMcGee

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 04:49 PM

Honestly, you'd probably fail out of the police application process for having too high of IQ
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
-Lebron James

#56 Spademan

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:57 PM

View PostBigDMcGee, on 08 June 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Honestly, you'd probably fail out of the police application process for having too high of IQ

While the ignorant, gorilla, violent arsehole trope is exaggerated in regards to police, there is a discernible and non-trivial elevation in personality and ignorance type in terms of authoritarian, republican, racist, xenophobic stupidity verses a general sample of the U.S. population.
'"Luck" is people taking the laws of probability personally; Luck is the excitement of bad math.'

#57 SuitedAces21

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 08:02 PM

View PostSpademan, on 08 June 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

While the ignorant, gorilla, violent arsehole trope is exaggerated in regards to police, there is a discernible and non-trivial elevation in personality and ignorance type in terms of authoritarian, republican, racist, xenophobic stupidity verses a general sample of the U.S. population.

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#58 mrfritz

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 06:07 AM

From pfa
http://pokerfraudale...Nevada)/page106

Quote

Okay, so I promised to reveal what Negreanu told me about Micon, so here goes...

During mid-late Day 2 of the $3k Limit event, I was moved off my very good table to a not-so-good one, with Negreanu to my left. Table basically had no fish and I also ran bad, so I only lasted a few hours, and missed the money by 14 spots. Blah.

But anyway, Brandon tweeted at me that he would excuse me from an "expensive burger bet" I lost to him if I asked Negreanu about Micon, and recorded it.

I decided to ask Negreanu, but not record it. Simply put, I generally like Negreanu, and think he's good for poker, and I don't want to be a dick and secretly record him, even if it would make for good forum/radio lulz.

However, I see no problem in revealing the general details of the conversation, as it was at the tournament table and not private or quiet.

I started off by asking him, "Did you hear about what happened to Bryan Micon?"

I was fully aware that Negreanu may not have known that Micon and I were no longer friends.

Indeed, that seemed to be the case, as Negreanu instantly shot back, "I'd call it karma!", but then realizing we might be friends, qualified it with, "...Umm... I think?"

I told him that I agreed it was karma, and suddenly Negreanu was off to the races, feeling safe to vent.

Basically he said the following:

- Micon was obsessed with harassing him about Choice Center, and Daniel had no idea what caused the obsession

- He had a 2-hour telephone conversation with Micon at one point, trying to get him to calm down with the anti-Choice-Center rhetoric. Micon spent the entire time insisting it was a cult and that it was hurting people, and wouldn't back off his assertions, so Negreanu finally had to give up after arguing with him for 2 hours (lol)

- He didn't like that Micon repeatedly bashed Choice Center without having personally experienced it. He said that Micon was posting "a combination of misinformation and half-truths, with a few small truths mixed in", and wouldn't stop.

- He finally gave up debating publicly with Micon about it, when it became clear to him that Micon was trying to just use the whole thing to get attention for himself, trying to be the guy who made Daniel Negreanu look crazy/stupid.

- He felt Micon "obviously has a lot of anger in him" to be behaving the way he does

- He had no sympathy for Micon's situation with the Seals bust, saying that even if you disagree with the law, you can't just break it for profit and expect no consequences, or call yourself a victim of the government when you get busted.

- He "wanted to say something publicly" criticizing Micon's gofundme page, but restrained himself because he felt it would just create unnecessary controversy.

- The person who gave Micon the Choice Center paperwork was NOT Martha, but rather a friend of Micon's named Katja. I did not get Katja's last name.


Anyway, suffice to say that Daniel isn't going to be contributing to Micon's legal fund.

This is my first rodeo

#59 Essay21

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 06:30 AM

Oh man, id forgotten about that choice center thing. That was a cult though, wasnt it? I mean i dont remember much about it or really care to investigate further, but i think i remember thinking it was pretty cultish.

#60 BigDMcGee

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 07:08 AM

Your face is kinda cultish
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
-Lebron James




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