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The Middle Class Are The True Job Creators........


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#1 ChicagoPhil

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 02:14 AM

http://baltimoresun....0,1448474.story


As I've been reading this forum and I'm not quite sure where most of this forum sits with a topic like this and I'd like some opinions.

As for myself I firmly agree with this article and i also think that this country is and has been headed in such a bad direction that even the upper middle class should begin to worry about getting this issue correct. Everyone likes making money but when a man can't even afford to have a place and enjoy a little barbeque it's only a matter of time before the real chaos will begin. Once you get that boulder rolling downhill.

#2 AmScray

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 07:31 PM

The article is completely correct, however there's fallacy afoot.

Job creators are real. They're a certain breed of person. Some start off poor, some start off in the middle, some start off already prosperous but the one thing they have in common is that they're far too productive and idea driven to accomplish their objectives as one person, so others must be hired to get there. Jobs: Created.

A lot of these job creators rise to the level of extreme wealth and earned their place among that 1%,right alongside the idiot son inheritors and old money bluebloods who we all hate. A lot of them are upper-middle and even middle class small business owners who write paychecks, themselves live modestly but by leftist standards, are still 'unfairly rich'.

The mythology is that extreme wealth, in and of itself, is inherently a symptom of job creation, which is absolutely untrue. To the contrary, over the past 40 years, you're a lot more likely to encounter extreme wealth derived from job destruction and/or passive speculation than you are from innovation and job creation. Bill Gates or Steve Jobs do not negate this. A looting of America has taken place over the past three, four decades that we're too dumb to comprehend now but a couple hundred years of hindsight will recognize this era for what it is. LBO's were really the forefront of it all.

What broke the American perch of surpremacy, though, was the idea that Americans were somehow magically entitled to a standard of living many, many, many times higher than everyone else in the world. Economicies and the flowage of money is absolutely a zero sum game. Once the 'emerging markets' joined the fray and realized that their immense, untapped resources in cheap labor was their ticket to ride, the American 'middle class' soon had to acquaint itself with a painful truth; that unskilled American dumbasses weren't entitled to jet skis when their unskilled dumbass counterpart in China was willing to make that same trinket for 1/10th the wage, because **** a jet ski, he didn't even have enough to eat last night. What to do when you have tens of millions of people who are accustomed to a completely unsustainable, artificially high standard of living relative to their actual importance to the economic ecosystem?

The final straw was the emergance of the entitlement era, the ascension of non-productive underclasses demanding 'services', all financed by debt. The American mentality has shifted away from do'er to expect'er. The funny thing about this sort of thing is its been going on for thousands of years yet every generation to run this gauntlet believes they're somehow unique.

Its no mystery how this ends.
We're flat ass broke with no prospects in sight, but we have an incredibly weak neighbor to our north who is loaded to the gills with valuable natural resources in an upcoming inflationary era where the price of essential commodity products are about to go bananas. Oh, don't worry, China. Our debt national will get paid off... with Canadian timber, Canadian gold, Canadian crude oil...
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#3 Dubey

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:23 AM

Rreally dramatic horror movie music started playing in my head as I read that last paragraph.

#4 BigDMcGee

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:13 PM

I think the Imperial March is probably the song you should be going with there.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
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"Dust. Wind. Dude."
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#5 FCP Bob

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:28 PM

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#6 ChicagoPhil

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:47 AM

View PostAmScray, on 26 February 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

The article is completely correct, however there's fallacy afoot.

Job creators are real. They're a certain breed of person. Some start off poor, some start off in the middle, some start off already prosperous but the one thing they have in common is that they're far too productive and idea driven to accomplish their objectives as one person, so others must be hired to get there. Jobs: Created.

A lot of these job creators rise to the level of extreme wealth and earned their place among that 1%,right alongside the idiot son inheritors and old money bluebloods who we all hate. A lot of them are upper-middle and even middle class small business owners who write paychecks, themselves live modestly but by leftist standards, are still 'unfairly rich'.

The mythology is that extreme wealth, in and of itself, is inherently a symptom of job creation, which is absolutely untrue. To the contrary, over the past 40 years, you're a lot more likely to encounter extreme wealth derived from job destruction and/or passive speculation than you are from innovation and job creation. Bill Gates or Steve Jobs do not negate this. A looting of America has taken place over the past three, four decades that we're too dumb to comprehend now but a couple hundred years of hindsight will recognize this era for what it is. LBO's were really the forefront of it all.

What broke the American perch of surpremacy, though, was the idea that Americans were somehow magically entitled to a standard of living many, many, many times higher than everyone else in the world. Economicies and the flowage of money is absolutely a zero sum game. Once the 'emerging markets' joined the fray and realized that their immense, untapped resources in cheap labor was their ticket to ride, the American 'middle class' soon had to acquaint itself with a painful truth; that unskilled American dumbasses weren't entitled to jet skis when their unskilled dumbass counterpart in China was willing to make that same trinket for 1/10th the wage, because **** a jet ski, he didn't even have enough to eat last night. What to do when you have tens of millions of people who are accustomed to a completely unsustainable, artificially high standard of living relative to their actual importance to the economic ecosystem?

The final straw was the emergance of the entitlement era, the ascension of non-productive underclasses demanding 'services', all financed by debt. The American mentality has shifted away from do'er to expect'er. The funny thing about this sort of thing is its been going on for thousands of years yet every generation to run this gauntlet believes they're somehow unique.

Its no mystery how this ends.
We're flat ass broke with no prospects in sight, but we have an incredibly weak neighbor to our north who is loaded to the gills with valuable natural resources in an upcoming inflationary era where the price of essential commodity products are about to go bananas. Oh, don't worry, China. Our debt national will get paid off... with Canadian timber, Canadian gold, Canadian crude oil...

What makes you think Americans are not entitled to a higher standard of living? I thought that is why wars were fought so courageously. The promise of a standard of living and freedom.

#7 AmScray

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 03:38 PM

View PostChicagoPhil, on 28 February 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

What makes you think Americans are not entitled to a higher standard of living? I thought that is why wars were fought so courageously. The promise of a standard of living and freedom.

You don't understand much about why wars are really fought.
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#8 ChicagoPhil

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:02 AM

View PostAmScray, on 28 February 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

You don't understand much about why wars are really fought.

You don't understand that the reasons why they are really fought don't matter. It's what the people that are doing the fighting think that counts.

#9 AmScray

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:33 PM

View PostChicagoPhil, on 01 March 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

It's what the people that are doing the fighting think that counts.

Not really.

https://www.youtube....h?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI
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#10 ChicagoPhil

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:12 PM

That was never a war. That was an excuse to put pressure on Pakistan.

#11 AmScray

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 07:42 PM

By that standard, we never really 'fought a war' since the big one in double-ya double-ya two.

Most 'wars' as of late are shitty geopolitical proxy skirmishes and legit, straight-line-connected Military Industrial Complex motivated nonsense. They have nothing to do with freedom, eagles, patriotism, rights, etc but its essential that the people who do the fighting think that so we can maintain an all volunteer force. Without Jingoistic nonsense cheering them on, nobody would ever sign up for that bullshit.

Authoritarian types with martial fetishes (easily found on conservative websites, firearm forums, etc) are being manipulated.
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#12 BigDMcGee

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:15 PM

Agree completely with Scram. And I also think all the wars we've fought since WW2, have been fought poorly. War is not noble. It is not courageous. It is horrible. It is terrible It's the worst hell that man can unleash on his fellow man. And, it is sometimes necessary. So, if we deem it to be necessary, I think it should be fought all out. Totally. With maximum horror and destruction of the enemy. Anything less is foolish. I think doing that 1) makes you really think twice about getting into a war in the first place, since the horrors of it will be grossly unpopular with the citizenry, unless the country is TRULY in an existential threat, and then the population will be behind it totally. 2) It gives you an actual chance to win.

These wars in Afganistan and Iraq, were doomed to failure. You can't fight a moral war, a limited war, and expect to achieve any measure of victory. I mean, you can knock out a regime... but to break a people's will to fight, get them to surrender utterly to you and submit to your post war doctrine.. absolutely can't be done the way we are fighting the wars. And we can't fight the wars any other way, because people would freak out if we started firebombing cities and committing genocide. So, since we can't win these wars, I would much prefer not to fight them at all.

I'm not sure if the leadership of our military is delusional about our countries legitimate ability to achieve their geo-political goals in places like Afganistan, or if there's some darker reason for them wanting to tie up trillions of dollars and 100K's of our population in the military. I suspect it's the latter as I'm a cynical person by nature, but hubris/incompetence has a punchers chance.
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#13 AmScray

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 10:58 PM

The whole idea of 'humane war' is absurd.
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#14 ChicagoPhil

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 01:53 AM

So we find ourselves trending common ground. I think the wars we've seen have been more about a hidden agenda than actually accomplishing any thing of value. Still we fought wars in the past with the promise of better standards and real freedom. We now find ourselves in a situation where those promises look like they are impossible to meet.

The area I originally disagreed is with the assessment that our standard of living was impossibly high. Had there been better government and better preparation/management the promises should have been easy to meet.

I often wonder why there is no morality clause written into our laws if business is there to serve its community. We have bought and sold ourselves into a corrupt society.

Sorry lost in my thoughts and responding on my phone. I'll edit at a computer later.

Good responses. I appreciate them.

#15 AmScray

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:18 AM

I think a lot of it is we've entangled ourselves in nonsense where we don't belong.

I don't care what happens in Crimea no more than I don't care what happens in Iraq, Afghanastan, Libya, Egypt, Syria or anywhere else not in this hemisphere. If they want to eat each other, let them. Not my problem. Government killing its own people? Stand and fight, roll over and die, exodous to another country. Rooting for the oppressed, but not my problem. Poor, suffering craphole them, lucky, privileged, American me. Life may not be fair, but that isn't my problem either.

Snowballing of dangerous, major powers (ie- stopping communism from getting too large for us to handle, Germany confiscating Europe), different story. The idea that every shitty bush war or conflict is somehow our affair in the name of saving humanity from itself? Totally over that idea.

What my grandfather fought for in France isn't what my father fought for in Vietnam, its not what some poor kid thinks hes fighting for in Iraq.... however if we're going to send someone to fight, right or wrong, then we cannot hamstring them in the slightest. Politicians love to wave the banner of 'human rights' around when they're sending some kid to be canon fodder yet they don't have the political courage to carpet bomb the place before he goes in to ensure his odds are a lot better.

We don't talk about Curtis LeMay much these days yet he may have been the single greatest hero of the entire war, including Churchill. I will forever resent blacks for hijacking the name Curtis, thus preventing me from naming a son after him.
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