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Ept Barcelona Ruling In 10K Event


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#101 SuitedAces21

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 05:09 PM

i do what i can for the greater good.
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#102 BigDMcGee

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 05:09 PM

View PostMPaler, on 07 September 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

At least I can write, not just post a pic of the inbred hall of fame all time problem solver. Spare me slick; you're just upset I called out your boy. Get over it.

And for gods sake, do something about your family tree; it looks odd with only one branch.

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#103 SuitedAces21

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 05:11 PM

you're gonna feel pretty bad someday if one of these losers actually does it.
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#104 BigDMcGee

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 05:25 PM

not even for an instant would I feel bad.
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
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"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
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#105 SuitedAces21

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 05:33 PM

that's harsh but i understand it.
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#106 SuitedAces21

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 06:42 PM

tanner post something else i wanna hit you with a gif
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#107 SuitedAces21

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 06:46 PM

i don't wanna wait.

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#108 king_tanner

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 06:51 PM

I think you should make that noose pic your avatar

Hopefully if you look at it enough it will encourage you to take action
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Wednesday, January 5th, 2011, 8:14 PM)
$5,000 lol wish it was 5000

#109 SuitedAces21

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 06:53 PM

dammit
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#110 mrfritz

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:32 AM

I like poker lol
This is my first rodeo

#111 MPaler

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:21 AM

View Postking_tanner, on 07 September 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

So third time you have used this already. How many people insulting you does it take for you to realize that you are the one being the troll?

At least find a different troll pic. Like maybe one of the cute ones with the hot pink hair?

Sorry, but BigDMcGee's mom/sister (Mosis? Sisom?) was just a one night stand, so I didn't save the picture she gave me. I mean, who wants to be reminded of getting crabs?

Although if I ever want to save money, having that picture in my wallet, so it can be the first thing seen when I open it up, would be a good way to do it.
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#112 SuitedAces21

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:31 AM

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#113 BigDMcGee

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:38 AM

You seriously might be the most unfunny person I've ever seen on the internet, and that's saying a lot. At least Holly's terrible posts were short and sweet
"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
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-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
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#114 gatortom64

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:25 PM

At Your Seat - A player must be at his or her seat when the dealer delivers the first card off of the deck in order to have a live hand.

BIG difference between AT a seat an IN a seat!!


Johnny Chan shaking hands with a legend.

http://www.facebook.com/thomas.dyer1

gatortom64: too bad I folded my 46, I woulda banked
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#115 rcgs59

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:07 PM

Op-Ed: "First Card Off the Deck" Rule is Good #ForTheGame
Posted Image

The newly-adopted Tournament Directors AssociationRule #29 has recently been instituted, and while reaction has been mostly positive a few “top pros” including Daniel Negreanu and Jason Mercier have come out in opposition.
Here is the rule:


TDA 29: At Your Seat
A player must be at his seat when the first card is dealt on the initial deal or he will have a dead hand. A player not then at his seat is dealt in, he may not look at his cards, and the hand is immediately killed after the initial deal. His blinds and antes are posted and if dealt the bring-in card in a stud-type game he will post the bring-in*. A player must be at his seat to call time. “At your seat” means within reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to condone players being out of their seats while involved in a hand.


It recently came to a dramatic dispute at EPT Barcelona involving Daniel Negreanu.
First of all I believe Daniel's hand was killed incorrectly in this situation as he was apparently "at his seat." Did he react correctly? Obviously not, but the "first card of the deck rule" (FCOTD) was not to blame here at all and in fact these "was he at his seat" arguments were more common with the way the rule was before the TDA adopted FCOTD. Daniel also needs to also realize that being away from the table at all hugely increases the likelihood that his had could be killed in error.
Now about the "first card of the deck rule."
When I first heard that the EPT (Now GPTL) was using this rule two years ago I was not a fan. After hearing Daniel Negreanu and Jason Mercier (PokerStars Pros) tweet me about it I was on their side and questioned the reason for the change. Fast forward to June 2013 when I, as a Tournament Directors Association (TDA) founder, felt it was time to get the rules globally standardized andinvited the following to the Board to join myself, Linda Johnson, Jan Fisher, Dave Lamb and Mike Bishop: WSOP TD Jack Effel, GPTL Head of Live Poker Operations Neil Johnson, and WPT Borgata TD Tab Duchateau.
By adding Neil I knew there were some major rules differences (FCOTD, last aggressor, and significant action). The goal was to get all major tournaments to use the same rules so I knew there would have to be some compromises. I was ready with all my arguments to get Neil to change to TDA standard on the three and dump FCOTD. Getting him to change the significant action rule to 3/2 was easy, last aggressor a bit more difficult, but he wouldn't budge on FCOTD. After listening to his reasons (which he later wrote a blog about here), I proposed to the rest of the board that we bring it to the TDA Summit and the 170-plus attendees comprised of Tournament Directors and Card Room Managers from around the world. The way the TDA creates rules is by getting a majority for a rule and then asking those that don’t agree if they can live with the new rule in the interest of standardization.
At the Summit when the rule came up for discussion both sides were presented and it was 100% in favor of the change. As word traveled to the WSOP that the EPT FCOTD would now be global Daniel fired some nasty tweets toward the TDA stating that we don’t have the player’s best interests in mind and that we are just trying to piss off the customers, which could not be further from the truth. He also backed off other statements made that TDA members wouldn’t even understand how bad this rule is because they were not players, which upset Hall of Famer Linda Johnson and led to this article at PokerNews.
I have made it my career goal to listen to players and adjust to the changing times. For Daniel and Jason to say the players have no input is completely false. I personally ask players for input multiple times on twitter, the forums, and in person and rarely get a suggestion. The EPT rule of FCOTD was also never mentioned. Many times the player with the loudest voice gets the changes but the amateur player that supports the rule isn’t often heard which I think is very unfortunate. I want new players in the game and making them comfortable is vital.
My reasons in support of FCOTD are not exactly the same as Neil’s.
1. Players should not have to worry about people at THEIR table standing behind them while looking at their cards. I have seen players accidently see another players cards and know that malice wasn’t intended but that should not even be an option. After explaining to players that this is the main reason for the rule change I have turned many players who hated the rule to at least understanding it and many are now in favor.
2. EPT/GPTL was not changing its stance and having one of the market leaders on board with the TDA is an important step for poker.
3. I have personally witnessed hundreds of times dealers wait/ stall before getting the last card off the deck if they see a player they know or like coming to the table. It’s a favoritism issue and there should not be any room for that in the game.
4. I have been told by players on occasion that they feel that a player may have seen their cards and that it affected the way the hand played out. This is the one that scares me the most because these decisions could be for millions of dollars and a scandal of this magnitude would be bad for the game.
5. Having players keep their seat naturally during “bubble play” is a nice added feature to this rule.
6. It’s just not that big of an issue. It’s true that the learning process for the players, dealers, and staff is the toughest part, but the industry will learn and players will adjust and the problem of understanding and implementation will diminish greatly. I have already used the new TDA rules at Bay 101, Seminole Hard Rock, and now at Commerce with no real issues.
I’d now like to debate the arguments I have heard against the rule.
1. “I hate this rule” and “It’s stupid” are not proper arguments
2. “It’s a social game and you are taking that away from us.” — I feel that talking to the player at your table is a much more social part of the game. There are breaks to catch up with your friends.
3. “I cannot leave the table anymore.” — This one drives me crazy! Of course you can still leave the table. The average time it takes to pitch two cards is 6-10 seconds!!!! That means that 6-10 seconds is the difference in them being able to walk around and not being able to leave the table from the old rule to the new. Missing a hand is not the end of the world and many players don’t even mind missing the occasional hand.
The Tournament Directors Association will meet again in 2015 and anyone that knows me is aware that I am happy to discuss and debate poker rules and issues on my twitter account @SavagePoker.
Rose

Fluffdog87
QUOTE
I love the game of poker for the competition, the psychology, the never-ending quest to improve, the advanced and sometimes minute complexities not everyone sees when they play, and the enjoyment of succeeding after giving all your energy to reach a goal that may at first seem unattainable but that you find a way to make it possible.

#116 MPaler

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:07 PM

View PostBigDMcGee, on 08 September 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

You seriously might be the most unfunny person I've ever seen on the internet, and that's saying a lot. At least Holly's terrible posts were short and sweet

As if any comedic legends will be knocking down your door anytime soon for the rights to use the rope picture. Just in case, would they have to pay the entire KKK or just you, a nickel each time they use it? Be sure you ask at your next meeting.

OMG! I just noticed - you used your W-O-R-D-S for a change! Good boy! Your Dacle (Dad-uncle, did I get it right? Or is it Unc-addy?) would be so proud; if only they had internet access in prison, he could see how far you have come!
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#117 SuitedAces21

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:10 PM

he got you there, McGee, you are racist as hell.
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#118 MPaler

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 03:04 PM

View Postrcgs59, on 08 September 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Op-Ed: "First Card Off the Deck" Rule is Good #ForTheGame Posted Image

The newly-adopted Tournament Directors AssociationRule #29 has recently been instituted, and while reaction has been mostly positive a few “top pros” including Daniel Negreanu and Jason Mercier have come out in opposition.
Here is the rule:


TDA 29: At Your Seat
A player must be at his seat when the first card is dealt on the initial deal or he will have a dead hand. A player not then at his seat is dealt in, he may not look at his cards, and the hand is immediately killed after the initial deal. His blinds and antes are posted and if dealt the bring-in card in a stud-type game he will post the bring-in*. A player must be at his seat to call time. “At your seat” means within reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to condone players being out of their seats while involved in a hand.


It recently came to a dramatic dispute at EPT Barcelona involving Daniel Negreanu.
First of all I believe Daniel's hand was killed incorrectly in this situation as he was apparently "at his seat." Did he react correctly? Obviously not, but the "first card of the deck rule" (FCOTD) was not to blame here at all and in fact these "was he at his seat" arguments were more common with the way the rule was before the TDA adopted FCOTD. Daniel also needs to also realize that being away from the table at all hugely increases the likelihood that his had could be killed in error.
Now about the "first card of the deck rule."
When I first heard that the EPT (Now GPTL) was using this rule two years ago I was not a fan. After hearing Daniel Negreanu and Jason Mercier (PokerStars Pros) tweet me about it I was on their side and questioned the reason for the change. Fast forward to June 2013 when I, as a Tournament Directors Association (TDA) founder, felt it was time to get the rules globally standardized andinvited the following to the Board to join myself, Linda Johnson, Jan Fisher, Dave Lamb and Mike Bishop: WSOP TD Jack Effel, GPTL Head of Live Poker Operations Neil Johnson, and WPT Borgata TD Tab Duchateau.
By adding Neil I knew there were some major rules differences (FCOTD, last aggressor, and significant action). The goal was to get all major tournaments to use the same rules so I knew there would have to be some compromises. I was ready with all my arguments to get Neil to change to TDA standard on the three and dump FCOTD. Getting him to change the significant action rule to 3/2 was easy, last aggressor a bit more difficult, but he wouldn't budge on FCOTD. After listening to his reasons (which he later wrote a blog about here), I proposed to the rest of the board that we bring it to the TDA Summit and the 170-plus attendees comprised of Tournament Directors and Card Room Managers from around the world. The way the TDA creates rules is by getting a majority for a rule and then asking those that don’t agree if they can live with the new rule in the interest of standardization.
At the Summit when the rule came up for discussion both sides were presented and it was 100% in favor of the change. As word traveled to the WSOP that the EPT FCOTD would now be global Daniel fired some nasty tweets toward the TDA stating that we don’t have the player’s best interests in mind and that we are just trying to piss off the customers, which could not be further from the truth. He also backed off other statements made that TDA members wouldn’t even understand how bad this rule is because they were not players, which upset Hall of Famer Linda Johnson and led to this article at PokerNews.
I have made it my career goal to listen to players and adjust to the changing times. For Daniel and Jason to say the players have no input is completely false. I personally ask players for input multiple times on twitter, the forums, and in person and rarely get a suggestion. The EPT rule of FCOTD was also never mentioned. Many times the player with the loudest voice gets the changes but the amateur player that supports the rule isn’t often heard which I think is very unfortunate. I want new players in the game and making them comfortable is vital.
My reasons in support of FCOTD are not exactly the same as Neil’s.
1. Players should not have to worry about people at THEIR table standing behind them while looking at their cards. I have seen players accidently see another players cards and know that malice wasn’t intended but that should not even be an option. After explaining to players that this is the main reason for the rule change I have turned many players who hated the rule to at least understanding it and many are now in favor.
2. EPT/GPTL was not changing its stance and having one of the market leaders on board with the TDA is an important step for poker.
3. I have personally witnessed hundreds of times dealers wait/ stall before getting the last card off the deck if they see a player they know or like coming to the table. It’s a favoritism issue and there should not be any room for that in the game.
4. I have been told by players on occasion that they feel that a player may have seen their cards and that it affected the way the hand played out. This is the one that scares me the most because these decisions could be for millions of dollars and a scandal of this magnitude would be bad for the game.
5. Having players keep their seat naturally during “bubble play” is a nice added feature to this rule.
6. It’s just not that big of an issue. It’s true that the learning process for the players, dealers, and staff is the toughest part, but the industry will learn and players will adjust and the problem of understanding and implementation will diminish greatly. I have already used the new TDA rules at Bay 101, Seminole Hard Rock, and now at Commerce with no real issues.
I’d now like to debate the arguments I have heard against the rule.
1. “I hate this rule” and “It’s stupid” are not proper arguments
2. “It’s a social game and you are taking that away from us.” — I feel that talking to the player at your table is a much more social part of the game. There are breaks to catch up with your friends.
3. “I cannot leave the table anymore.” — This one drives me crazy! Of course you can still leave the table. The average time it takes to pitch two cards is 6-10 seconds!!!! That means that 6-10 seconds is the difference in them being able to walk around and not being able to leave the table from the old rule to the new. Missing a hand is not the end of the world and many players don’t even mind missing the occasional hand.
The Tournament Directors Association will meet again in 2015 and anyone that knows me is aware that I am happy to discuss and debate poker rules and issues on my twitter account @SavagePoker.

Well, thanks so much for spelling this all out for us. For me it's still more an issue of who wants to wait, for someone who should be seated and ready to go, when they are not. There is just no reason they cannot get up after folding action to do whatever they need to, and get back into the chair in time. If that costs you by having AA mucked, then you ought to learn better time management during the game.

I should think in that respect, it will affect players who attempt to play two MTT games at once most of all, correct? Maybe that is partially why Mercier would have a problem with it? I have seen him racing from one room to another playing in two events simultaneously. Still, it's inconsiderate to those playing one game who might have to wait.

In the end, I really think people should realize that if left up to the players (rule creation/enforcement), that you could never possibly satisfy them all. So, while we all appreciate the acceptance of our input, in the end final word really should come from the sanctioning organization, and the players just have to adapt. My job is to play the game within the established rules, yours is to tell me what those rules are.

And with that being said, if this rule is changed back or ignored due to one or two pro's screaming bloody murder, it will set a bad precedence ("gee, that worked, what else can I get by crying like a wuss?") and is basically telling the lesser known players (the little people, lol) that they really do not matter when it comes down to it; it more depends on your status as a pro player than equality within the event for everyone as a whole.

Please keep in mind that the squeaky wheel does not always get the grease; sometimes it's gets replaced instead. So if you don't like the rules, don't play.
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#119 BigDMcGee

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 03:30 PM

View PostMPaler, on 08 September 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Well, thanks so much for spelling this all out for us. For me it's still more an issue of who wants to wait, for someone who should be seated and ready to go, when they are not. There is just no reason they cannot get up after folding action to do whatever they need to, and get back into the chair in time. If that costs you by having AA mucked, then you ought to learn better time management during the game.

I should think in that respect, it will affect players who attempt to play two MTT games at once most of all, correct? Maybe that is partially why Mercier would have a problem with it? I have seen him racing from one room to another playing in two events simultaneously. Still, it's inconsiderate to those playing one game who might have to wait.

In the end, I really think people should realize that if left up to the players (rule creation/enforcement), that you could never possibly satisfy them all. So, while we all appreciate the acceptance of our input, in the end final word really should come from the sanctioning organization, and the players just have to adapt. My job is to play the game within the established rules, yours is to tell me what those rules are.

And with that being said, if this rule is changed back or ignored due to one or two pro's screaming bloody murder, it will set a bad precedence ("gee, that worked, what else can I get by crying like a wuss?") and is basically telling the lesser known players (the little people, lol) that they really do not matter when it comes down to it; it more depends on your status as a pro player than equality within the event for everyone as a whole.

Please keep in mind that the squeaky wheel does not always get the grease; sometimes it's gets replaced instead. So if you don't like the rules, don't play.

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"We are only wise in knowing that we know nothing"
-Socrates

"Dust. Wind. Dude."
-Ted Theodore Logan

"I'm a basketball player and a businessman, not a Thundercat,"
-Lebron James

#120 SuitedAces21

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 05:15 PM

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