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I Run Like Daniel Negreanu


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#1 bmiddle

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:34 PM

This isnt the worst hand ever or the worst beat as I don't really like telling bad beat stories, but more of a horrible player story and me really just typing the hand out and racking my brain trying to figure out how I lost the hand:

It's a tournament, we're in the early levels. Starting stacks were 15K, blind levels are 30 minute levels. I have been playing well, built my stack up to 53K so far due to actually flopping a straight and getting 2 players' stacks earlier on. We're at 75-150 level now and I am in the small blind. Second 2 act raises to 300, 5th position calls, cutoff calls, button calls, at this point it comes around to me and I decide that with all the money out there I am going to call and see a flop with 4-5 of clubs, assuming BB would call too (which he did).

The flop couldn't have come any better for my hand: 8clubs, 7clubs, 5spades. I have a gutshot straight flush, straight draw, and bottom pair which I really felt was good here (put everybody on high cards). With 1800 in the pot, I decide to lead out and I went with 1200, figuring if anybody had something good they were either going to raise or get out now. BB mucked, original raiser mucked, 5th position mucked, cutoff mucked, and button called. When he called, I really put him on Ace high because of the draw heavy board, if he had a pair higher he'd probably raise to see where he was at. The turn paired the board with the 8diamonds. I led out this time into the pot of 4200 with a bet of 3800. He then raised to 14k. I went with my original read and put him on high cards trying to buy the pot, maybe putting me on a draw. I instantly shoved all-in as I felt calling was a bad play, and if he was on high cards I didn't want to call and have a Q hit the river. He called off the rest of his stack (about another 16k) with Aspades, 6hearts for nothing by A high and a gutshot that more than likely with that board texture is either chopping at best or losing.

And of course, the river peeled off the Ace of Diamonds. I just chuckled at the hand and he said some smartass comment about how he knew Ace high was good, and that I wasn't convincing enough throughout the hand. I politely let him know that I wasn't mad, that if he wanted to continue to call off his stacks on horrible reads and go in way behind for his tournament life that I'd love to have him at my table. I am just confused as to how I lost this hand ... and as to how he thinks he made a good call. Because he literally said when he made that the call and he saw the cards that it was a good call.

4clubs, 5 clubs vs Aspades, 6hearts on a 8clubs, 7clubs, 5spades, 8diamonds board ... I've got to at least be 85% to win this hand. He's got 5 outs unless I am over looking something (2 aces, 3 sevens). Any thoughts?
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#2 Whiskers

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:56 PM

This is what I thought of when I saw the thread title:

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#3 Var1ance

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

Just wondering, what tournament ?

#4 donk4life

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 06:54 PM

You seriously couldn't have played that hand any worse.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#5 StormDeal

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:00 AM

You put all your money in on bottom pair and a draw. He was open ended right, he needed a 9 or 4 for a straight. He obviously did not know you had clubs. So in his eyes he probably thought he had 11 outs.

You had a good read but I do not like your play. Pro players will tell you sometimes you must fold the best hand and wait for a better spot. This guy is obviously a bad player if you fold the turn here and wait for a better spot you probably bust him later. Why risk such a large portion of your chips on a marginal situation like this?

#6 TrueAce13

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:31 AM

Nice read.
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#7 Tehtoe

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:24 AM

This is quite a hand, nice read, just unlucky :(. You should post some more hands for discussion though, I'm interested in hearing more of your thought processes, and I think it'll help us all improve as players.

#8 Tehtoe

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:30 AM

Couple things here. Your raise is perfectly fine on the turn, but when he re-raises here, I am just flat calling with 5-4 club club. It's not a made hand and that's what a lot of people seem to forget. I'd rather have 2-2 and catch a set in this position obviously then 5-4 club club and catch a club on the river. Not to mention with the flat call I have the ability to play the hand in position. It's a bit of a cooler like some people have pointed out, but I definitely disagree with them getting on you about shoving. It's a bad play to fold 5-4 club club after you have raised ... but it's not always a bad play to let 5-4 club club go. Now, yes - folding after you have re-popped it is a losing play - but that's why you should have just flatted, and not re-opened your pot. Your only 2 plays were to push after his initial re-raise at that point or to just flat (which is what you should have done). 5-4 club club isn't a hand you really want to be risking your tournament life with. I feel like a lot of players get into trouble with suited connectors because they love to get into those race situations. You had position on this hand and that's the key. If you flat, and the river comes the Ace of diamonds, it's really easy to get away from 5-4 club club. If you're saying you re-raised and then folded after he shoved, not a good move. Next time you should just flat and play your position in the pot.

#9 StormDeal

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:08 PM

I would really like to hear some of the other forum members opinions on this hand. After reading it again I think you must check call the turn. Your read was impressive but he still could be ahead on the turn. (hands like 99, 10 10, A8, 77 or even A X of clubs, K X of clubs which would have you crushed if the final club shows up. I know you think he would of reraised the flop with many of these hands, but I think the majoity of players just smooth call and see what transpires.

The turn was your chance to exercise pot control. Which with your 3rd pair super low club draw hand needed. Also you were OUT of position which is a major point which Tehtoe up above got wrong. I really admire your aggresiveness and with a shorter stack and an out of line opponent it may have been the right play. However with your large stack this just feels so wrong to me in a tournament.

Really interesting hand.

#10 Var1ance

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:09 PM

He was open ended with an ace, as mentioned he's thinking 11 outs not knowing you had clubs. This is just a weird hand, the pre action let a lot of hands get in, I agree that his call of ai was a bad call, you could have had a made straight or a nut flush draw taking away his ace, which isn't too far fetched in this situation. I don't think it was a bad play really. A Lot of you guys are getting caught up in what he could have had. The hero made a good read and was repping a good hand a6 is a pretty bad hand to call Here with one card to go.

#11 bmiddle

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 07:53 AM

Yeah I hear what a lot of you are saying, I went with my read and I push. I had him covered in the hand so it wasn't my tournament life - it was a good portion of my stack and it did set me back, but it didn't knock me out. I went with a read (the right one) but just couldn't get him off of the hand which happens I guess. Like I said during the tournament, oh well. Onto the next one. Thanks for all the feedback.

And to answer your question Variance, it was a monthly deepstack tournament. It's a decent tournament I play in every month.
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#12 Var1ance

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 11:55 AM

I like deep stacks a lot I think it eliminates a lot luck and gives an edge to good players.

#13 bmiddle

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 12:41 PM

Yeah deep stacks are really good. I bubbled the final table of that tournament. Ran J's in K's, I was BB he was SB. Cold deck situation but I cashed so it's no big deal.
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#14 TrueAce13

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 04:27 PM

jbl
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#15 akashenk

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:14 PM

There were so many unconventional things that went on in this hand. It’s clear the both of you were making reads and going with them, rather than playing your hands in any sort of logical or straightforward way, so it’s hard for an outsider who doesn’t know the button player’s tendencies or image, or yours for that matter, to make a good determination of the optimum line here. Anyway, here’s how I would have probably played the hand and why:
  • I think I would have given strong consideration to squeezing pre-flop. Your stack size certainly allowed for it, and I just think it’s a stronger play. A lot would have depended on the image of the original raiser. If they were fairly tight and/or straightforward, I would be more likely to squeeze because they would be easier to play against out of position after the flop. And maybe if they were really tight, you could steal the pot pre-flop, which would have been ideal with your holdings. Flatting pre-flop is better than folding
  • I disagree with your estimation of how well you flopped. The flop that came could certainly have been better for you. You obviously didn’t miss it, but it is the type of flop that is just as likely to get you in trouble as it is to win you the pot, especially against so many pre-flop callers You basically hit bottom pair with a bunch of draws to second-best type hands. Even the miracle 6c wouldn’t give you the nuts. About the only turn card that could improve your hand without likely improving anyone else’s is a 5. But even if that comes, again, you have nowhere near the nuts. Hitting a flop like this, I would go into full pot-control mode. Leading the flop is the opposite of this. His flat on the flop tells you nothing. He could be on a draw. He could have a weak 8 or some other marginal hand. He could be floating. Again, knowing this player’s tendencies would be crucial to trying to figure out what’s going on, but I just don’t think you get any information from his call, which makes the lead out even worse. I don’t really understand what you based your read of him having A-high on. There are plenty of marginal hands people will simply flat call you with, as well as monsters and big draws.
  • The turn lead is a little better than the flop lead, IMO, thought it certainly wouldn’t qualify as pot control, and it would have been better if it followed a flop ck/call or ck/ck. At least at this point, you’re representing a fairly strong hand (an eight most likely). In reality, you’re bluffing here. As long as you know that, I think you’re ok. But when the button puts in that big raise you’re put in a tough spot. Everything being equal, I don’t think your shove is the worst play in the world since again, you’re bluffing and hope to have some fold equity. However, this is a very high variance play. Your opponent put in half his stack. Is he the type to do that on a semi-bluff and then be willing to let go? As it turns out… apparently not. His call was pretty bad, unless he put you precisely on a hand like 9Tc and was willing to flip a coin for the remainder of his chips.
At the end of the day you both played the hand in a less than ideal fashion, IMO, and I think he probably played it a little worse and got really lucky. Even though you put him in a bad spot, I think you need to question your thinking throughout the hand. You mentioned that your read was that he had big cards. I guess you were more or less right, but I’m not sure how you could come to that conclusion based on how the hand played out. Regardless, if that was your read, there didn’t seem to be any reason to play the hand as aggressively as you did. If he had a hand like AQ, then he had no more than 5 outs, and perhaps only 4. Why go crazy with a hand as mediocre as you had when in that position? In the end, as evidenced from your comments and the way you played your hand, I think you just overestimated how strong you flopped. One of the keys to playing any spec type hand is to know the difference between gold and pyrite. The weird thing about this hand is it would have been just as easy for you to wake up drawing really thin on the river as having him in such bad shape. That sort of high polarization, high variance play is certainly nothing out of the ordinary in "modern" poker.

#16 donk4life

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:49 PM

omg he's back!!!!

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#17 donk4life

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:49 PM


Posted Imageakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:


I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#18 akashenk

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:32 PM

I'm glad to see no one has taken you out, donk. The world needs intellectual ditch-diggers. How are things at home with you and your pet poodle, trueAce? Or was he the master and you the pet? I can't remember.

#19 Whiskers

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:37 PM

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#20 donk4life

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

View Postakashenk, on 17 June 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

I'm glad to see no one has taken you out, donk. The world needs intellectual ditch-diggers. How are things at home with you and your pet poodle, trueAce? Or was he the master and you the pet? I can't remember.

you still trying to fold out hands that you beat?

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.




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