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Passive? : Aggressive?


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#1 gadjet

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

2 - 5 NL Live Game

SB
BB (Me) - $1,200
UTG - $600
UTG+2 - $800
**UTG+3 - $1100
Button - $900

UTG raised preflop to $40, UTG+2 calls, **UTG+3 calls, Button calls, I call from the BB with :6s :6d .

Flop comes: :6h :7c :8c

As first to act I check, I'm in a good position here with preflop raiser on my immediate left who I know well, she C-Bets 100% of hands, so I get to see action for free... I also know the other three callers:
UTG+2 plays an ABC game fairly tightly, but gets out of hand with pots where he is the aggressor... when he has the nuts he plays very passive.
**UTG+3 a drunk rich regular... the kind who will shove $1100 blind... or call his whole stack with any 2 preflop if he knows he's up against AA cause it's "fun" to crack Aces...
Button is an older player who plays a passive game and then completely overbets... limp shoves with AA KK almost 100% of the time.

I check
UTG bets $95
UTG+2 - Calls
**UTG+3 - Calls
Button - Calls

What should I do?

(The bold stuff is added, I messed up telling the hand the first time around with pretty key info lol... meh)
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#2 TrueAce13

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:09 PM

Raise. Heaps of draws out there to get value from and there is a ton of money in the pot to begin with

but i think this is a fold pre
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#3 Var1ance

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:10 PM

I agree with the raise, more often than not the only one calling has a nut flush draw, possibly As/Jk don't see the straight as a possibility, not with the players you described. I probably call pre flop as well with your stack, in position. After the two calls of 90 I make it 450-500 or so then jam the turn. You could flat but passive players prob lay this down, unless they hero with Aa/KK but only have two outs assuming it doesn't go runner runner club.

#4 Var1ance

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:11 PM

My auto correct changed AA/KK to as/jk lol. So what did you do ?

#5 Var1ance

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:12 PM

Also I'm saying passive players probably lay the cards down to a raise, I should explain better I'm sorry.

#6 StormDeal

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:49 AM

I agree raise the flop up to 500 or 600. Then jam the turn. I totally disagree with above saying this is a fold preflop. You are basically set mining here and with fairly deep stacks and $125 in the pot and only $35 more to call, against 3 0pponents easy call.

How did it turn out?

#7 gadjet

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:02 AM

ugh... I completely messed up describing the hand haha... sorry guys.

There was a 4th player involved UTG+3 With $1100ish stack...
He also called & called the flop bet.

This player was a drunk rich regular... the kind who will shove $1100 blind... or call his whole stack with any 2 preflop if he knows he's up against AA cause it's "fun" to crack Aces...

Sorry guys I posted in a rush... thanks for the input... lemme know if this changes anything. (I will edit the original post)
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#8 Var1ance

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:05 AM

The only thing it changes is maybe bet slightly more than I had originally posted, still jamming the turn. If he's that big of a donk to come with like 9/10 trying to crack something, that sucks. Does he play every hand? Or at least way more than average, since he is super aggro as described and didn't jam the flop I prob still 600 the flop , rest on the turn, if it gets that far.

#9 TrueAce13

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostStormDeal, on 11 June 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

I agree raise the flop up to 500 or 600. Then jam the turn. I totally disagree with above saying this is a fold preflop. You are basically set mining here and with fairly deep stacks and $125 in the pot and only $35 more to call, against 3 0pponents easy call.

How did it turn out?
Don't raise to 500;that would be really bad.
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#10 gadjet

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:43 PM

So the line I opted for was to flat call the flop.

My intentions were to see the turn, and hoping for a miss I intended to increase my aggression so the draws only had 1 card to come.

The turn card fell :4c ... I checked, UTG checked UTG+3 shoved, I folded and UTG called...

UTG+3 had :5c :jc ...

When I folded I discussed my line on the hand with a friend who is easily the best player in the room. He said that he would've played the flop much more aggressively, which is also the line you guys took...

So you all say raise on this flop? Can you explain why this is better than pot control, extracting good value on the turn?

I feel like I still prefer my line, but my concern is that I'm playing overly cautious to protect my stack rather than maximize profits. So... please convince me that I should be raising this flop.
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#11 Var1ance

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:53 PM

That's riduclous, UTGplus3 shouldn't of been in that hand. That's just unlucky, you did the right thing it turns out, but to put him on an open ended straight draw and a flush draw is just ridiculous for the action that occurred. I prob still jam the 600 and make him make the decision, yes he's probably calling but you're not in horrible shape. You could boat up or he could just miss, either that or he puts you on the nut flush draw and lays it down anyway. If you shove there 9/10 they're prob thinking AK/AC clubs.

#12 TrueAce13

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:59 PM

This is really results oriented thinking. I'll try to make a better post when I'm on a computer
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#13 TrueAce13

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:13 PM

Bc if the the crazy guy is willing to get it in with these types of hands, we can do it right away on the flop when we pretty much have the nuts. He is gonna be getting it in with over pairs, two pair, straight draws and flush draws. Get the money in now so we don't have to worry about him maybe folding if the flush card gets there. Even if you then do end up being against a flush draw and he gets there, you still have outs. And against a maniac, folding the turn is pretty nitty too. He can have worse hands here a lot and can have bluffs. You've got to think about the villain you are playing. Your description of him and his style really goes against how you played his hand
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#14 donk4life

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:51 PM

Curious as to why you think this is a fold-pre Ryan. Not saying I agree/disagree, just want to hear your thoughts.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#15 TrueAce13

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:02 PM

Was just an initial feeling the first time I read the hand before he added the utg+3 guy. Just seems to be a large open size and I hate being oop, tho its obviously a fit/fold situation. I was wanting all stacks to be 200+.
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#16 gadjet

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:44 PM

All stacks were $600+ and maniacs full stack was in play for almost any made hand. No way it's a fold pre.

In my description of the maniac I left out that I am very comfortable with my reads on him in the vast majority of situations. The fold on the turn was an easy snap fold after watching him bet.

Also I understand that it comes across as being results oriented, but I really don't intend it to be. Had the turn come a blank and I would've won the hand (don't know for sure that would've happened) I still would've asked my friend for his input on my flop action and he still would've said he takes a more aggressive line. I'm asking the question because of the options going through my mind while making the flop decision and in my mind the two lines are very very close.

I certainly wasn't giving the maniac credit for the open ended flush draw.. but with 4 hands out there I have to give at least 2 of them credit for their $95 flop calls.
Flush draw is in the mix for sure (always is)
Open ender is possibly out there but unlikely (Only Maniac would have it in range (unless it's a pocket pair of 10's)
78 for top two pair cripples my hand for a boat redraw

A made straight or A higher set isn't out of the question... but obviously unlikely.

I didn't have anyone on specific hands on the bet calling info in front of me.
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#17 TrueAce13

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:27 PM

When I say 200, I mean 200bbs deep 1k plus
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#18 Var1ance

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:48 PM

Agreeing with gadjet no way is this a fold pre, you could justify calling with a lot of hands in that position. Any pp there is an easy call, even most suited connectors/ jack 9 or better suited for value.

#19 donk4life

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:53 AM

meh yeah this isnt an easy "omg we have a pocket pair with odds let's call". this game seems to be playing more like a 5/10 game with those raise sizes

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#20 gadjet

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:12 AM

I guess it's hard to express how odd the game I play in is... which in turn makes it difficult to discuss strategies etc... and then of course I forgot a key player when first describing the hand lol
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