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Betting River For Value


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#1 gadjet

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:02 AM

I'm having trouble with lost value on the river. If I have a made hand and I'm leading the whole way, when the river completes a draw or draws, I feel so handcuffed. I lose value by checking to a weaker hand who checks behind me. To a lesser extent I'll check rivers in position when I feel there's value in betting...

plz discuss my fear of opening doors to agressors on the river...and why it's bad and why I should be betting these spots more...
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#2 donk4life

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:05 AM

Learn to bet/fold more, easy peesy.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#3 TrueAce13

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:39 PM

ya, bet/fold is usually a good line
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#4 KingJames

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:03 AM

Agree with D4L and TA13. River bluff raises are pretty rare - you can bet for value and fold to a raise comfortably at most stakes.
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#5 FCP Bob

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:31 AM

View PostKingJames, on 15 May 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Agree with D4L and TA13. River bluff raises are pretty rare - you can bet for value and fold to a raise comfortably at most stakes.

Would the advice be the same if you are playing a lot with the same players ?

I can see a situation where you are playing a lot with the same players and if some of them notice that you bet/fold a lot on the river that they will exploit that with river bluff raises.
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#6 SuperJon

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:35 PM

View PostFCP Bob, on 15 May 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Would the advice be the same if you are playing a lot with the same players ?

I can see a situation where you are playing a lot with the same players and if some of them notice that you bet/fold a lot on the river that they will exploit that with river bluff raises.

That's why it's important to not only keep track of your opponents, but of yourself as well. Especially how any of the above average players view you.

#7 TrueAce13

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostFCP Bob, on 15 May 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Would the advice be the same if you are playing a lot with the same players ?

I can see a situation where you are playing a lot with the same players and if some of them notice that you bet/fold a lot on the river that they will exploit that with river bluff raises.
ya, i mean obviously you're gonna have to change value/bluff ranges v players you play w/ a lot who might keep realize what you are doing.

I think with the basis of the question is someone who is looking for river value v villains at a local casino or card room, who are never good enough to bluff-raise the river.

Gadjet, the bet/folding for value is usually the best way to get value. One, villains can think we are bluffing at a good card and will pay off w/ lessor holdings. Another reason, is that when we check the river when a draw card comes in, we can lose value to weaker hands that are going to check back. Most villains won't value bet thin and will check back when bad cards come.

Again, this all comes down to player dependency, but it is a line that you should try more and you should see a good amount of success and a higher ROI b/c players are just not good enough to bluff in these situations.

edit: i feel like i rambled and repeated myself a lot in this but w/e
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#8 gadjet

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:16 AM

Thanks for the feedback, it confirms what I've identified as a leak/lost value in my cash game.
I've been thinking through these ideas and watching river action and I've been surprised that I've only picked up on it now.
In addition to a bluff-raise on the river being a very tough to move for a standard player to consider, for the most part at my casino the stack depths usually play out that a value bet is for 70-100% of peoples stacks so that comes into play.
The 1/2 game has a $400 buyin so only the very good players (usually 2ish at a table) buyin for that and everyone else is sitting on between $100-$200... by the time the river action is in place their stacks are all but committed on a value bet call/fold.
I don't think this should affect when and where I'm value betting my range too much, but it is an usual factor at my B&M.

Anyways, thx again.
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#9 answer20

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:26 AM

B/F is a great to look at this situation. My first thought was to put yourself IP more often since its where you are most comfortable betting these tough Rivers. Of course you cant always do that and need to try to play well from every position. Another way to get more value if you are uncomfortable on the River is to bet more on Flop and Turn so the pot is 'big enough' going into the River that you wont feel shorted if it checks through.

Another way to do this would be to check through more Turns OOP and then bet out on River even if its a scare card. Every time you give an opponent a free card doesn't mean you missed out on value and there is something to be said for pot control if you are in an uncomfortable position or the board is a bit scary. I see TONS of Turns get checked through in tournament hand histories, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good play for cash 'most of the time'.

Regulars will pick up any pattern you present to them, so mix things up. Betting out is the only way to get value. Once you feel comfortable betting out, then all you have to do is start to regulate your bet sizing to get the max call from weaker holdings. GL




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