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Genuine (Sh) (5/10)


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#1 CobaltBlue

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:24 AM

Been a long while since I posted strat hands, but thought a couple of recent ones were interesting...

Bovada 5/10 NLHE (5-handed)

Cobalt $1065
BB $3363
UTG $1510

Cobalt is SB w/ :jh :9h. We're 29/25/5 and should have a TAG image. UTG is 27/12/4 over 26 hands and quite fishy. BB is 38/31/.8 over 65 hands and very fishy.

Pre-flop:
UTG calls, 2 folds, Cobalt calls, BB raises to $50, UTG calls, Cobalt calls

Flop ($150): :qh :js :9d (3 players)
Cobalt checks, BB checks, UTG bets $110, Cobalt raises to $370, BB raises to $720, UTG calls, Cobalt ?

Donking the flop was obviously a thought, and I'm willing to discuss that. As played though, what are our thoughts?

#2 answer20

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:14 AM

Tough spot here always with bottom 2. They should feel that you have something if you are TAG and raising, but they dont really care since they are putting money in without 'waiting' for you to act again. The BB not leading out is huge to me here and he has to know that his bet will either take it down or get one of the 2 of you to shove ... which he 'has' to call so he needs to have something to go with. I think the worst he has is A10 and very well could have QQ. Does he raise OOP with K10 or QJs, unlikely and I think he leads out with AA, KK and AQ here so I really put him on QQ.

The smooth call from the UTG lends me to think K10 or QJ .. maybe A10 .. but he doesnt shove so I think he wants to price you into the pot since he thinks he is strong enough to withstand 2 other players. He limp-called pre, so that gives him the widest range of the 3 of you in the hand. I guess it is possible that he has QQ also.

I think you could have donk bet here with your TAG, a fairly strong hand and wet Flop. It certainly would have saved you $250 in this spot before you needed to decide if you are to continue.

This pot got large in a hurry for the stack sizes involved and without very good reason to think that both players are making very thin moves here I dont mind you/us slow folding so they know you had a decision to make.

#3 gadjet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:07 AM

I muck pretty quickly... I like the raise, but that is just a sucker hand for that board.
If you shove you're obviously getting called for your last 3 hundy twice... so best case scenario you're trying to fade half the deck... if you flat any card above a 7 on the turn is ugly for you if you had the best on the flop.

even if I see that I was ahead here on showdown or that I would've scooped, this is one spot where I have no problem laying down...
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#4 gadjet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:10 AM

Sorry by donking the flop I thought you meant shoving behind the $720... but now reading A20's post I see you mean leading out? So ignore my obvious comment on a shove over the 720 being terrible...
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#5 CobaltBlue

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:28 PM

View Postgadjet, on 17 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Sorry by donking the flop I thought you meant shoving behind the $720... but now reading A20's post I see you mean leading out? So ignore my obvious comment on a shove over the 720 being terrible...
Yeah...donking (donkbetting) would be leading into the pre-flop raiser. Based on what I know of the players, I'd probably be willing to get it in on the flop against one of them.

#6 gadjet

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:38 AM

View PostCobaltBlue, on 19 January 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Based on what I know of the players, I'd probably be willing to get it in on the flop against one of them.
Yeah if this was a heads up situation i.e. UTG folds, then it's a different story especially at 5/10 where people can play more than set or better here...
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#7 CobaltBlue

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:45 PM

I suppose it's mostly an interesting hand in the way the action worked out and the results. I do think it's a fold in a vacuum...which is what I did. The turn was 3o. BB checked, UTG jammed, BB called. UTG showed QTo and BB showed KK. Just funny that KK somewhat butchered the hand but got the best hand to fold and the worst hand to call.

#8 gadjet

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:49 PM

Yeah definitely a fold and lick your lips for your next spot ... congrats to KK lol
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#9 answer20

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:50 AM

Yeah ... nice of the 15%er to escalate the action here!! We 'know' one is on a draw, you just dont know what the 'strong' person has. I still think the Flop smooth call by UTG is interesting. He must have thought he would be good if his draw hit and wanted to keep the 3rd player in the pot. He also HAS to know he is being trapped (by no less than AQ) by the check on the blank Turn, yes? Those 'I should have bet the previous street differently' bets don't seem to work out very often.

The donk bet was the way to go here in a 3-way pot, but there are times I would still walk away as I indicated earlier. Just one of those cases where the position of the hands in play can change the action and get the best hand out. You were still very vulnerable at 56% after the Flop, but would have been getting a very good price to have a 3-way shove fest here!!

#10 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:20 PM

View PostCobaltBlue, on 22 January 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

I suppose it's mostly an interesting hand in the way the action worked out and the results. I do think it's a fold in a vacuum...which is what I did. The turn was 3o. BB checked, UTG jammed, BB called. UTG showed QTo and BB showed KK. Just funny that KK somewhat butchered the hand but got the best hand to fold and the worst hand to call.

Just wondering where BB butchered this hand here. I can't see it, but it must be there.

Also, what worried you more here in this spot. BB C/R or UTG just calling?

To me, by the numbers, looks like UTG was on a draw, but BB could have had alot here.

What factors did you think about that made you fold?

Interesting hands you have posted recently. Glad to see some strat back around again. Makes me wish I had time to play again. :icon_frown:
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#11 CobaltBlue

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:27 PM

View PostCorvairShaggy, on 23 January 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Just wondering where BB butchered this hand here. I can't see it, but it must be there.

Also, what worried you more here in this spot. BB C/R or UTG just calling?

To me, by the numbers, looks like UTG was on a draw, but BB could have had alot here.

What factors did you think about that made you fold?

Interesting hands you have posted recently. Glad to see some strat back around again. Makes me wish I had time to play again. :icon_frown:
I think BB's small c/r of my c/r is ambitious and somewhat bad. Generally speaking, he should just go ahead and bet that flop. Basically, by c/ring, he's begging to get all of the money in on the flop...when his hand isn't strong enough to want to be doing that with that stack.

Well, I thought that I had UTG beat a decent portion of the time (though not always)...but that he could be on a draw. With the BB, I was strongly concerned that he had QQ/JJ/QJ/KT. It's a very odd play for him to make with anything really...but especially anything other than those hands.

#12 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:20 PM

View PostCobaltBlue, on 23 January 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

I think BB's small c/r of my c/r is ambitious and somewhat bad. Generally speaking, he should just go ahead and bet that flop. Basically, by c/ring, he's begging to get all of the money in on the flop...when his hand isn't strong enough to want to be doing that with that stack.

Well, I thought that I had UTG beat a decent portion of the time (though not always)...but that he could be on a draw. With the BB, I was strongly concerned that he had QQ/JJ/QJ/KT. It's a very odd play for him to make with anything really...but especially anything other than those hands.

OK, so if you were BB in this situation, what would be a better play? Betting about $110-$150 on the flop, and hope he gets a call or two, and hope for a dud on the turn? If there was a raise, call? If a dud turns and gets checked to him again, fire another 2/3 to pot sized bet, and be really cautious of a call. Any raising or any A/10/Q/J/9 on the turn just give up at this point?


If I am stoving it correctly, even multi-way at the flop if he was assuming both people were playing 15% range and assuming both players were on a draw, he still is a favorite. But I guess the correct way to handle this situation is keep the pot in check, and not get it inflated here. BUT, if you had KK and you make a bet and get an immediate raise and call, are you calling here as well going to the turn 3-way here, or laying it down at this point? I guess this is based more on table history?

There maybe too many variables and "what ifs" at this point to answer. Sorry about that. Just got on a thinking-out-loud moment.
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#13 answer20

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:44 AM

Big time 'Thank you' to this hand as I just won a very nice pot yesterday with similar action. I held QsJh in late position .. 1-2NL (plays more like 2-5) ... I opened ($550 stack)for $12 and was raised by Button ($200 stack, VERY TIGHT) to $30 and then the SB ($475, VERY LOOSE) and I flat.

Flop is KsQcJs ... SB and I check and Button puts out $75, SB smooths. I pause while putting SB on a draw, maybe combo draw. He didn't isolate Button pre-Flop as I think he would have with me in the hand. He was very tilty from losing an $800 stack a short time ago also. The Button was a harder choice since I can only put him on AA, KK, QQ, JJ or AK from pre-Flop action. From his larger than normal Flop bet size though I put him on AA or AK, not a set. Even though the flush draw was out there I knew this opponent doesn't put much stock in people drawing to flushes to the point where he (as we all shoud I guess) encourages people to try and draw out on him.

So I decide to isolate Button and take my chances with SB in a side pot by shoving. Button kinda grumbles but calls and SB insta-calls!! Thought I might be in trouble, but both reads were spot on as Button turned AKd and SB turned over A8s. All 3 of us agreed to run it twice as this was a fairly large pot. The first board blanked out so I was in the clear and the 2nd board Rivered an Ace for a chop of the main, but I took all of the side from SB. I was actually thinking about this discussion during my thought process after the Flop.

Putting it into the odds calculator I see I am only 45% to win it all and 60% to win the side going to the Turn so it was quite a big 'flip' but I was priced into the main very nicely and a favorite for the side. On the outside looking in it was probably a pretty silly move on my end, but I went with my pyhsical reads to narrow their ranges and was right (this time).

Any thoughts on this one??

#14 answer20

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:03 AM

On the main hand in question here ... yes, the BB wants to lead out or just smooth the raise and see what happens in both cases. This is a very dangerous board with 'just' one pair and only 6 cards that can help you improve if you are behind. I folded both AA and KK in other hands yesterday post-Flop ... and was right in both cases.

I may be giving a 'results' orientated remarks, but I was 'in the zone' yesterday but trying to keep myself in check for the next session.

#15 CobaltBlue

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:07 AM

answer, the QJ hand seems fine given reads.

#16 mtdesmoines

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:32 PM

Incredibly wierd hand. I think a fold isn't horrible unless we have detailed files on both players.
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