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My Thoughts On Howard Lederer Playing Poker Again


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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:58 PM

So it appears Howard has been playing in the mixed games in Bobby's Room for a little while now, but recently showed his face in a poker tournament, sitting with many players who haven't received a dime of their FTP money at this point. Shocking, disgusting, shameful, and totally disrespectful.

The Bellagio can't really tell him not to play, well they could, but they choose not to. I wasn't as surprised to see Howard playing in a cash game with friends where he feels protected, but I was shocked to see he had the balls to sit down with a group of people who mostly hate him.

I have yet to sit down in a game where Howard was there, and I've thought about what I would do if he did choose to play in a game I was in. There are a lot of variables to think about. First of all, the reason Howard feels comfortable playing there is because he is amongst friends who support him: Doyle Brunson, Eli Elezra, Huck Seed, and David Grey. This is the one place in the world where Howard can fit in at a poker table, order wine, drink, gamble, and laugh it up while players outside the glass look in... Still without their money.

It doesn't look like this is going to stop anytime soon. He has that base of people who support him, and other professional poker players need to make a living, so they sit down with him because he is often the mark in the game. Little known fact about Howard, but he was never a winning player back in the old days. The only time he won was when they built a stud game around a guy named Jay Bauchman who was horrible. Howard was never a winning player in the mixed games and was being staked by David Grey. In fact, it was David who gave Howard the seed money to invest in FTP. Just to show you how shameless Howard is, he later allowed David to invest at twice the price of other investors, despite owing him money! That just goes to show you the type of character he has.

So you have this nucleus of players, and then you have professional players who may not like Howard, but they don't really have a lot of options in terms of games. This is the only game in town, so if they decided they didn't want to play wit Howard, that would mean they make no income. Not really an option for them.

Recently I heard that Crazy Mike was playing with Howard and grilled him to the point of tears (according to Mike.) for those of you unfamiliar with Mike, this guy talks a mile a minute and non-stop for hours on end. It wasn't enough to make Howard leave though. He seems determined to be a regular in these games.

I've recently had a major passion for poker and have been playing every chance I get. I'm currently on a plane flying back from NYC and hope to play poker again this week. Since the game I want to play is the same game that Howard wants to play, that leaves me two choices:

A) refuse to play and sit on the sidelines
B) sit down, tell him that he is a shameful scumbag and that his decision to play shows a complete disregard and lack of respect to other players in this room that are still without their funds. That he is delusional if he thinks the poker world is going to accept him with open arms after that pitiful interview with PokerNews.

What would you do if you were me? Not play poker, or sit with him, take his money, and let him know personally how me and the rest of the poker world feel about him?




#2 SAM_Hard8

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:07 PM

Play with him act like nothing is wrong and take all his money. A mark is a mark after all.
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#3 The Ocho

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:10 PM

I would play if I were you. But, I probably wouldn't even say anything to him. It's not like he doesn't know how you feel. Somehow, I cannot see you going that route.

#4 YonYonson

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:10 PM

can you explain why you care so much? i imagine you angrily typing while fighting back tears - the injustice just too much to handle. because i mean clearly what howard did at FTP was wrong. no arguments there, but why do you take it so personally?

what do you hope to accomplish?

#5 JayKon17

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:10 PM

Obviously you have a positive skill EV on Howard, so in your own personal interest, jump on the opportunity of playing in a game with a lesser player. Your job, after all, is to find games you can beat and excel at them.

However, I'm sure Howard already knows where he stands in your book of morals, so he's not going to regard anything you say to him personally imo. Don't waste your breath on it. Just take his money, and reserve your emotions for your enjoyable rants.

Of course, if you just so happen to bring a crowbar... would definitely add intrinsic value to the term "Full Contact Poker" ;)

#6 YouAreCornflake

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:12 PM

I'd play, but dont forget the video camera so u can film the rant. Also dont forget to upload it to youtube

#7 answer20

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:12 PM

I think Howard has a very good idea where you stand with him, but you need to tell him in person (you don't hide!!) and then let it be since you will be wasting your breath to apply any sort of repetition. I have guys tell me all the time that there 'are no friends at the poker table' and so at least there it shouldn't matter your opinion of him. I have never done well 'trying' to focus on taking money from any one person OUTSIDE my normal poker game. If he is a mark/fish, then the money will come and it will be sweet, but shouldn't be treated differently than any other money won/lost at the table to any other person.

On the other hand ... if he trys to open the door, even a smidge, tell him you don't wan to get into that at the table as to ruin it for the others and set up a time/place to meet and discuss it. If he still presses on ... HAMMER HIM HARD as only you are cabable of ... hope to hear more soon ... good luck ...

And as I tweeted ... ask him if he played Herman Munster? ... that may be too childish and it would undermine the validity of your position ... ah, do it anyway ..

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#8 Brian Aka Brian

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:13 PM

I think you should play you're a poker player after all, If you say something to him or not is really up to you I think the point of how hated he is will come across even if you say nothing.
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#9 bullmoose

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:16 PM

I think you should play, and everyone at the table should needle him endlessly. If you don't play.....your letting him win.

#10 Pacstar

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:19 PM

If it was me Id tell him to f*** off and refuse to play with him. Through all thats happened you have always maintained your integrity which is more important than taking his money. If you take his money you are effectively taking FTP players money

#11 JS18119

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:21 PM

You play cards for a living right? So you should play if you think it's a good spot to help your cash flow.

I agree with others above as well, say what you have to say one time face-to-face, then be done with it and play some f-ing cards.

#12 JayLovesBoobs

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:22 PM

Howard may be a bad guy, but we live in a world full of bad people. You walk down the street everyday with killers, pedophiles, abusive spouses and parents, etc. The thing Howard has in common with the rest of these people is selfishness. All of these people look out for themselves and ignore that the rest of the world even exists. Don't let people like him stop you from enjoying the game you love. Just play with him and ignore he even exists, because people like him don't deserve to be acknowledged, Their selfishness makes them less and human; they are monsters. All he needs is himself, so give him that.

#13 TrueAce13

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:26 PM

Poker community feels that he is playing w/ their money. So then it would be assumed that you're alright w/ taking the players money.

I'm just saying this b/c of what I read on twitter from a large amount of respected players. Think it is a pretty shitty spot tho
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#14 Luningham

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

I think it's absolutely sickening that he shows his face in public, exotically in a tournament. He already knows your stand on the situation. Humiliating him in front of peers can't hurt anything. I just wouldn't take it far enough to get yourself in trouble.

#15 Bigtime1957

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

First I think it is a disgrace these Casino's are allowing him to enter, I thought thieves were always bared from Casino's. But I thinkanyone who would play poker with him, Is a disgrace to the game, and yes that includes Brunson, I say any game he gets in every one stand up walk away and tell the manager that you all refuse to play with this player, as for tourney's I would tell everyone to stand up and request your buy in back because everyone refuses to play with him, WSOP would never risk losing thousands of players for one thief, But hey I am an extreme kind of guy, I know I will walk away from any game I am in and he sat down, I just moved to Vegas so you all will be seeing me around a lot, so say hi, friend me on facebook @ silicon slick and on twitter @bt.phillips@ymail.com looking forward to meeting all of you now that I have arrived in Vegas.

#16 Unclechewy95

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:41 PM

I think there are enough players that feel the way that you do, some of who will be in that game. Speak up (as I'm sure you will) and I'm sure others will chime in. Shouldn't be difficult to drive him out of the game.

#17 imperialpapi730

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:43 PM

Once again your opinion in this matter is dead on. Lets face it many people can benefit from the anonymity Internet offers so they speak their mind here, but if they see him they are asking for a picture and/or autograph. In recent years poker has been becoming more liked and there has been a resurgence if you will which is proven by many facts none more then WSOP entries. Unfortunately like many things that are becoming popular someone(s) come up with an elaborate scheme and commit serious frauds. Howard had an advantage as his name was up their as one of the elite and he capatalized in a fraudulent manner as much as he can. Should casinos ban him?? Absolutely!!! If you are proven to have defrauded a casino in any manner u r black listed from all casinos. What he and the others did was defraud many of millions and millions of dollars. I wish I was in a position to play against him and take his money and then brag about it. He is a disgusting human and let's face it, it probably runs in the genes. Is it coincidence his sister was behind a massive "failure" known as epic poker? Absolutely not. I respect that you speak your mind. Not only does your reputation preceded you, u r the same in "real life." Poker needs more pros like u. I live next to Ramdin and respect him as a person first and poker player next. You guys (and countless others) are great ambassadors for poker and quite frankly it is because individuals like u that poker is over coming this major black eye. I wish you countless more episodes of success. Safe travels home.


#18 Balloon guy

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:53 PM

Wasn't Amarillo Slim a child molester?

Did you refuse to sit with him?
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#19 vy_cma01

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:53 PM

Do you think you will play differently while in a hand against him? Like just want to outplay him and show him a bluff

#20 The Ocho

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:57 PM

 Balloon guy, on 24 October 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Wasn't Amarillo Slim a child molester?

Did you refuse to sit with him?

Only before he turned 18.




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