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Tptk Facing Heat


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#1 blakheart

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:03 AM

$1 $2 game.

effective stacks $200

I have played less than an hour, my image is fairly solid. Villian is clearly a regular, all the others seem to know him. This is a midweek daytime game, so lots of regulars playing.

I am BB with AK off

3 limpers
villian in cutoff bumps to $12.
SB folds, I call, limpers fold

Flop A :club: :td 4 :club:

I check, villian bets $40, Hero raises to $90, villian shoves

#2 droberts

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:29 AM

theres $31 in the pot and he overbets.. what was ur plan for raising?

If u raise and fold u just turned ur hand into a bluff... honestly if i raise here then i have to call.

#3 droberts

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:30 AM

you could 3bet pre here so that you do not play your hand OOP.. thats a problem with this hand OOP.. its hard to get value when u hit. it allows him to play really good vs u.

#4 SuperJon

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:07 AM

Calling is never bad pre. 3betting is usually better and I think textbook. Personally if I took the passive line of just calling pre, then I think I'm more prone to play the rest of the hand a bit passive as well. Like x/calling a lot when we just have TPTK, and let him bluff with his entire range.

Him overbetting kinda sucks for us though. Do you have any reads on bet sizing tells? Most online players will overbet with the nuts only. I'd imagine that live players probably do the same, but might also add some TP type hands into the mix.

So his overbet probably means we're either crushed or chopping. I guess it ultimately depends on if you think he'd ever do it with worse value hands like AQ or AJ?

#5 BaseJester

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:36 AM

View Postblakheart, on 09 September 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

$1 $2 game.

effective stacks $200

I have played less than an hour, my image is fairly solid. Villian is clearly a regular, all the others seem to know him. This is a midweek daytime game, so lots of regulars playing.

I am BB with AK off

3 limpers
villian in cutoff bumps to $12.
SB folds, I call, limpers fold

Flop A :club: :td 4 :club:

I check, villian bets $40, Hero raises to $90, villian shoves
I hate calling preflop on this hand. Make it ~$50.

As played, I think you need to represent a draw on the flop, either by check-calling or by check-shoving, whichever you feel best fits with your reputation.

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#6 EAPaaron

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:30 PM

You check raised him. Him being a regular he probably puts you on AK or AQ. I doubt hes on a draw, he could have a set of 4s or 10s..... However It looks like he has A 10 to me. Only 12$ preflop. He bets 40$ on flop and shoves over your raise with best hand on flop and hopes to not get sucked out on by giving you free cards. Protecting his 2 pair is what it looks like.

That would be a general thought. However your move has to be determined by the player you are vs. Hard to really say based on reading your post. Id have to see him in action.

#7 donk4life

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:11 PM

LOL protecting his 2 pair and does not want to get sucked out on. Such a high-level of thinking right there.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#8 EAPaaron

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:26 PM

View Postdonk4life, on 10 September 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

LOL protecting his 2 pair and does not want to get sucked out on. Such a high-level of thinking right there.

Again, as I explained Id have to see the situation and guy in person to really know whats going on. I am basing this based on many situations where I see other cash game players who flop 2 pair and shove all in at flop to keep the draws away and protect their 2 pairs, especially since they have some worry that their opponent is putting serious cash into pot vs their 2 pair.

In this case if other guy has A 10, he still can lose to AK in the next 2 cards. Im not saying I think that way, but I see many players who do think that way.

Why dont you post to OPs question instead of sucking my nuts in every thread I post.

#9 donk4life

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:38 PM

ygm

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#10 blakheart

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:31 PM

so the general consensus is to 3 bet pre?

If so what do we do if he 4 bets? Shove?

Live games tend to be passive pre, his raise represents real strength in this game.

#11 meservery

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:55 PM

View Postblakheart, on 12 September 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

so the general consensus is to 3 bet pre?

If so what do we do if he 4 bets? Shove?

Live games tend to be passive pre, his raise represents real strength in this game.
We should probably not 3-bet pre if we aren't prepared to get stacks in when we get 4-bet.

And for the bolded, are you saying his pre-flop raise of the limpers represents real strength? Or are you now talking about the post-flop re-raise (which obviously represents real strength)?

#12 SuperJon

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:20 AM

View Postmeservery, on 12 September 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

We should probably not 3-bet pre if we aren't prepared to get stacks in when we get 4-bet.

If he has a really wide 3bet calling range, but a narrow 4bet range, then 3bet/folding can be okay.

#13 mtdesmoines

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:20 AM

View PostSuperJon, on 13 September 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

If he has a really wide 3bet calling range, but a narrow 4bet range, then 3bet/folding can be okay.

This. And we three bet PF all the time here, except vs the most extreme of nits. A reg raises in the CO and we flat? NO! BAD PLAYER! NO NO!

Oh, and once we built this pot PF to around $70 (assuming we reraised to $30 and villain called) we're always betting $65 on this flop because AQ AJs (hell, Ax) is in villain's range a ton. If he shoves on the flop, we're calling. Trust. Me. And if he folds, we're OK with that, we just won around 16 BBs w AK. I will take that all day.
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#14 answer20

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:38 AM

You should mix up your play with AK OOP ... so the call is not 'bad' but raising must also be an option in your game.

My live 1-2 rooms are anything but passive pre-Flop ... The one thing that stands out here though is that none of the limpers called. I personally would have had at least 1 and maybe all 3 limpers call a $12 bet in my game. (That either tells you about the game or my range image!!) With no limp-call/raise that may tell us that the table knows what is going on here, but it may not either. The table may have assumed your flat call as strong as well and folded ... hard to tell.

I don't really think you want to raise an overbet with only AK in this spot anytime ... did you have the Kc? Most 1-2 over-bets are 'shots across the bow' that signal a very strong hand or a huge draw but the player is just as happy to take it down right while making you pay dearly to continue. Leading out (donk bet) needs to be part of your game in this spot as well ... and probably would have saved you some money if you chose to fold. I agree with the comment made that since you didn't raise pre-Flop then don't switch gears on the Flop and check-raise (without stronger holdings) especially against an over-bet.

I put him on 2-pair .. but in my game any 2 clubs, with J10c the most likely, are also a consideration. It could be a set, but we assume he puts you on an Ace so why would he be afraid of a 3rd club? Does he really put you on KQc? More than likely he doesn't want you to hit a better 2-pr. Did he lose a previous pot to a suck-out or was he down for the day during your time at that table?

Don't raise the Flop and don't further your loss by calling this shove ... with action like this you will have a better spot to get your money back. There is just very little reason to believe that you are investing wisely. You don't have enough information on this guy to think that he is polarizing a bet here with JJ or similar, but I have seen it!!

#15 answer20

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:56 AM

When you do choose to raise pre-Flop, say up to $25 or $30, then definitely come out with a c-bet from $45 to $60 if you are prepared to call a shove and live with the variance that comes with a call or take it down right there. You are ahead of most of the ranges that call a 3-bet, except for sets, but that is part of the variance.

That may sound like I am double-talking my previous post, but the situations are different since he shoved a check-raise on the Flop as played and in this case he would have only smooth called a 3-bet, which should eliminate AA from his range and thus you are in 'good' shape' when taking on the variance once the Flop comes out.

If you get shoved on or 4-bet, then you can consider folding pre-Flop as well.

#16 Mahalo

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:12 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong in flatting pre in a vacuum or in folding/calling the shove but you have to prefer the 3/bet here pre. However the c/r flop line blows off almost his entire bluffing range at this level unless OP knows something about villain that we don't. If villain is very aggressive then there are enough draws present to call the shove and if hero knows villain is aggro then he shouldn't be c/r-folding to a shove IMO.
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#17 Gobler_Poker

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:09 PM

I'd say he has it.




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