Jump to content


Final Table Largest Stack ~20 Bb Play


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 CorvairShaggy

CorvairShaggy

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 794 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:42 AM

$10 $500 Guaranteed Table.Final Table play and blinds were getting up there. To me, Fold/Shove/Steal mode. But, there was one player there that would regularly min-raise open from EP, and would always fold to a shove. I was thinking isn't it bad to waste chips here, but as we played he did slow that play down, but would still open/call a good bit to see flops. He did go up and down in chips, but never seemed to go into panic mode. Just looked so finesse compared to everyone else open/shoving. Turns out, he won the tournament (I came in 3rd, yeah me!), but after watching him play made me rethink some things. After seeing he had a 37% ROI, kinda figured I could learn something from this guy. I tend to kinda nit up when we get close to the bubble, and even beyond, because at smaller 100-200 man turbo tables, when you get close to the bubble most everyone is in that 10-20BB range. I will go for the steal, and may call a bit lighter than i should against some players, but that is after I have seen them in previous plays shove ATC. If I get a decent stack and in position against lower stacked players, I will bully around a bit, but this guy seemed to be able to do it with a smaller stack ratio. Just making me rethink a few things. Any thoughts? The player was 13hope17 on Merge.
- - - - "It annoys me when players who play the tour for three years and don't do anything chalk it up to "variance." Yeah, has nothing to do with the fact that you suck... you are just unlucky." - - - - - Daniel Negreanu 1-21-2011 Blog

#2 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:05 AM

Well it comes down to what kind of what kind of tournaments you are playing, how deep effective stacks are, table dynamics. I feel that in turbo donkaments, stealing to get like (22-25bb stacks), isn't the greatest thing. I think that you need to know how to shovebot better than the rest, as well as know proper calling ranges.I'm not too sure exactly what you are questioning here tho. Should you try that style? I definitely think so! There are many advantages to it b/c many players do not know how to adjust to it. Oh, and at the bubble is usually the best time to build your stack and set yourself up for a deep runedit: seeing that you are talking about 200 man sngs i take it? there might be a different style, I am unsure b/c I did not really play sngs, just larger field mtts
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#3 answer20

answer20

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 114 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Hold'em

Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:53 PM

I think the table dynamics plays a huge role in this kind of play ... but I have been seeing more and more posts where 20bb is 'fine' and opening pots for 2.1x is very standard when you have a 'fine' stack. There are probably benefits to both styles ... if you have a tight image then you can challenge most Flops even if OOP and gain chips without much of your stack at risk ... or you can bully the table with 'well-timed' steal attempts but you have put your tournament life out there perhaps more than you want to?It seems to me that the shove/steal stack is closer to 12 -15bb rather than 20bb these days but I could be wrong. Bubble play also needs to be table dynamic as well since you have to worry about any stacks that can do damage to you if you try to bully with them behind you.A third style shown by Phil Collins at the Main Event final table didn't work out so well for him since he found out no information about the hands he was against was to 'open' limp. This is a style that has shown to be effective in heads-up matches as of late (via Gus Hasen) but probably is an invitation trouble

#4 MIddLES

MIddLES

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 41 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:lets put all of them in the mix

Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:30 AM

i've become a reg on merge last few months and 13hope17 is one a few good regs on the site that barrels pretty much all the trnys. table dynamics play an enormous roll in how many hands you can open in these situations, but with solid players/ regs on your left having a shorter stack like this can be to your advantage when opening for steals because this stack is very difficult to play back at. an open with say 13bb gives the perception of a jam without risking your tournament life or drastically changing the playability of your stack, choose these spots carefully but if you pay close attention to your table actively working these stacks can be a great opportunity. if there are some mtt regs on here that want to discuss mergeaments i'd be glad to out my sn and start a group chat, just get at me :) glz all

#5 DiamondDixie

DiamondDixie

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 920 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Chillin' in Meereen
  • Interests:Poker
  • Favorite Poker Game:Hearthstone :)

Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:50 PM

A bit late but I just saw this because I was actually googling 13hope17. Right now he's #1 on Merge, he runs remarkably good, much better than he plays imo. That said even though I find his play pretty unorthodox in some areas, he must be doing something right because he has very consistent results. He told someone today he was a she and that's why I was googling him/her.

One thing I'm noticing is the regs on Merge with the highest consistent earnings often have a pretty unorthodox style. One thing I see a lot of them doing is raising off a short stack and I've seen 13hope17 raise fold a 12bb stack on many occasions. I've had a lot of conversations lately with other merge regs about this and most feel as I do that you generally put yourself in a bad spot playing a short stack this way. I can't help but wonder with guys/girls like 13hope17, thebattler and ebosia playing this way and doing so well.

Tonight in the Mid-Week Monster Norfair was at my table and he was doing this too. The hand below is an example, I was sitting there with AT in a spot I would normally 3 bet or even call a short shove but when he raises off that stack I didn't feel I could 3 bet him without playing for all my chips. I think part of the success of this style is that it confuses good aggressive regs and throws them off to point that you get a lot of moves through that you otherwise wouldn't.

I've starting doing this some with 15 to 20bb and I've found it beneficial. One thing is it keeps my stack healthier being able to open a few hands that I don't want to play for all my chips with and getting a steal through and since I occasionally am seen raise/folding with this size stack it allows me to do this with monsters and get more value for my big hands. I don't do this with more vulnerable hands that I don't want to be put to tricky decisions with post flop like pocket pairs though JJ or AJ+ type hands. I sort of go by the 3 bet rule, I do it with the bottom of my opening range or monsters so when I open off a stack this size it's pretty polarized.

I think I went off topic a bit but great topic for discussion...


[11:05:16 PM] Lisa (DiamondDixie): Merge - $0+$0.00|<> NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG+2: 14,623.00
MP: 20,609.00
MP+1: 13,766.00
CO: 14,480.00
BTN: 12,165.00
Hero (SB): 38,744.00
BB: 10,708.00
UTG: 14,214.00
UTG+1: 36,840.00

UTG+2 posts ante 80.00, MP posts ante 80.00, MP+1 posts ante 80.00, CO posts ante 80.00, BTN posts ante 80.00, Hero posts ante 80.00, BB posts ante 80.00, UTG posts ante 80.00, UTG+1 posts ante 80.00, Hero posts SB 400.00, BB posts BB 800.00

Pre Flop: (pot: 1920.00) Hero has Th As

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 1,600.00, fold, fold, fold

CO wins 2,720.00

#6 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:15 AM

if CO is arggo don't see how this is anything but a jam
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#7 DiamondDixie

DiamondDixie

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 920 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Chillin' in Meereen
  • Interests:Poker
  • Favorite Poker Game:Hearthstone :)

Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:22 PM

The problem arises, and why raising from this stack is effective, is his range should be pretty polarized here so he either has a hand in the bottom of his opening range or he has a monster and with this player I think it's weighted slightly more towards a monster but not much in between. I think we can definitely argue a good case for a jam here but I think we're getting called about 70% here and we're mostly going to be behind.

I plugged this into a fold equity calculator and he needs to fold about 60% for a jam here to be profitable and I'm pretty sure he's not folding anywhere near that much with as little as he has behind.

Thus what makes his play so effective...

#8 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:35 PM

So you think he minraises the bottom of his range here as well as the top of it, but jams everything in between? I guess it comes down to what do you consider the bottom of his raising range.

I don't know, this type of play is kind of weird since if you know he's not minraising or jamming his entire range you can exploit that, no?

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#9 DiamondDixie

DiamondDixie

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 920 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Chillin' in Meereen
  • Interests:Poker
  • Favorite Poker Game:Hearthstone :)

Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:03 PM

Yeah Donk4 I think so, this is a somewhat recent online occurrence or mb re-occurrence would be more accurate. For awhile after BF I rarely saw anyone raise/folding a 13 to 18 bb stack but lately I'm seeing it and doing more and more. I think it's partly due to the stiff competition we're dealing with online now and the huge aggression factor. Doing the unexpected goes a long way but I'm sure there is a way to exploit this but I'm not sure how yet.

#10 HighwayStar

HighwayStar

    Tangled up in blue.

  • Members
  • 8,103 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, England

Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:56 AM

You see him raise fold a 12 bb stack a lot but don't think he'll raise fold an 18bb stack when opening from the CO?
I think I know the kind of player you're talking about and I'd be really surprised to find ATo isn't profitable shove there.

Do you see him jamming 18bb here very often?

(edit - nm see you're talking about a different player and also answers the jamming thing)

When you're talking about 3 betting do you mean shove or making it 6x here?

I think abig factor in working out the CO's range here is the BB. The BB is sitting there with 13bb and should be shoving fairly often. It would be a mistake to open too wide into an aggro BB, but if the BB is on the tighter side you could probably get away with opening quite a large range herein the CO.


but...if he's opening strong and weak I think you're going to find far more weak from your description/my experience of what I think are probably similar players.

Raise/call : 77+,AJs+ ,AJo+ :6.8%
Jam: 66-22,ATs-A8s,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo-A9o,KQo : 8.1%


You said he needs to fold 60% then he needs to have (6.8*60/40)% = 10.2% of combinations in a raise/fold range for you to move in with ATo

I get A7s-A6s,K9s-K7s,Q9s-Q8s,J9s-J8s,T8s+,98s,87s,A8o,KJo-K9o,QTo+,JTo to be 10.3% and I imagine a lot players like this are opening much much wider than that if they think they can get away with it.

I would say the answer to the problem is to jam/3bet these players more. Once oyu see someone with a 40% CO steal over even 100 hands he's going to be folding more than often enough to move in on him with hands like this.

Bit of a cluster**** of a post and certainly not the easiest way to figure this out. Hopefully it makes some sense.
.

#11 HighwayStar

HighwayStar

    Tangled up in blue.

  • Members
  • 8,103 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, England

Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:45 AM

Doing some more work out of boredom.

If you say CO raise/calls and jams what I said above (which is what I think is close to optimal jam range with his stack)...then you are 30.6% against the calling range.

...pen and paper maths....leads to he needs to fold more than 59.88%! Exactly what you said...heh

So to shove ATo, his total CO steal needs to be greater than 6.8% (raise/call) + 8.1% (shove) + 10.2% (raise/fold) = 25.1%


According to Pokerstove the 25.2% percentile hand ~A7o/J9s/T8s so if he's raising more than that ATo should be good to shove....pretty near to what I had in the last post.
.

#12 DiamondDixie

DiamondDixie

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 920 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Chillin' in Meereen
  • Interests:Poker
  • Favorite Poker Game:Hearthstone :)

Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:47 PM

Here are the CO's stats over 1500 hands: VPIP 17, PFR 13, 3 Bet 6, Folds to 3 bet 84%, Overall attempts to steal 30%, total AF 4.4 total AFq 52.8, I don't find a stat for steals in the CO but he's still only opening 17% in this position. I don't know if this tell us enough or not but him having such a high fold to 3 bet stat does make it likely that pushing AT here would be profitable.

Sorry shaggy I feel like I highjacked your thread but it is in the same vein.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users