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Bad Call?


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#1 iam5hashank

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:45 AM

Hi would u call this Bad call?HandHere is my explanation why i calledHe just limped preflop....i dint want that so i raised +limper pre-flop. He flat called. On the flop he made a bet of 300. I had top pair and top kicker. such tiny bet would have looked like a trap to me if board was all diamonds. Two pair not possible. I would not expect him to call my preflop raise with Q and rags in flop. I do think he could have a diamond draw so make a very high re-raise. He flat called to me. I dont expect someone drawing to call m with such low stack unless he/she is absolutely donkey. He checks the turn. I am wondering someone calling me with just a draw post flop is absolutely donkish. He cannot have a Q if he has a flush draw and nor can he have 9. So did he just play till here with Ad3d? He must have hit something on board. I put him on 9x with one diamond or on a set which i did not take into account. so i check back after him to avoid bleeding in confusion. On river he shoves it in. Now why would u do that with 4 diamonds on board. Either you have very high diamond or u are insane. A person with set would ideally try to maintain balance between value and risk here. All in looks to me like i just have a 9 and i want you to fold while checking the turn and min betting and then flat calling on flop. I take my time and decide to call given the pot odds and he playing that hand like a donkey. I do accept that lowest diamond could have been worse for me but i went by my instincts and thought process. Want to know if anyone else thinks like me or if you have any suggestion/comments.--BestShashank

#2 HighwayStar

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:00 AM

Shove the turn and don't see river. On river you're calling 2300 into 6800 so he needs to be bluffing/behind ~25% or more of the time for this to be a call. Completely player dependent and very close regardless. A normal range here is going to be pretty polarised between big diamond hands and bluffs. Combination wise there are probably enough bluffs vs Ad,Kd,Jd to make the call.I don't think you can rule out much from a player who plays a hand this way, you say he can't have a 9 then later you say the river shove looks like a 9. The fact he shows up with 94 here suggests he could play a ton of fairly random holdings in this manner. But seriously, no need to see this river, put him all in on the turn.
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#3 iam5hashank

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:04 AM

View PostHighwayStar, on 12 August 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Shove the turn and don't see river.On river you're calling 2300 into 6800 so he needs to be bluffing/behind ~25% or more of the time for this to be a call. Completely player dependent and very close regardless. A normal range here is going to be pretty polarised between big diamond hands and bluffs. Combination wise there are probably enough bluffs vs Ad,Kd,Jd to make the call.I don't think you can rule out much from a player who plays a hand this way, you say he can't have a 9 then later you say the river shove looks like a 9. The fact he shows up with 94 here suggests he could play a ton of fairly random holdings in this manner.But seriously, no need to see this river, put him all in on the turn.
I really wanted to do that but i was little confused to go all in after my re-raise being called and turn being a diamond.

#4 HighwayStar

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:23 AM

Whilst that limp call and then min bet/call the flop could definitely be flush I think it's a ton of other stuff too. Weak queens, straight draws, maybe a 9. Most of these hands will have some outs and will usually call a shove. The times you're ahead outweigh the times you are behind, you're gonna be raking in chips when you shove here.
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#5 iam5hashank

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 04:10 AM

I think you are right but only reason i avoided that was because of my bad beats from past 3 days. have posted them here. Pretty sick bad beats.

#6 Mercury69

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:14 AM

Don't be afraid of bad beats. Accept them and get over them. You will find you'll play better without fear. to quote the great Albert Camus: "In the depths of winter, I found there lay within me an indomnitable summer"
"We had all the momentum. We were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look west, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark, that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back." —Raoul Duke, Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

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#7 answer20

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:21 AM

I can see where he had you guessing in this hand a bit. His call on the Flop after such a tiny lead out seems a bit strange, but you have to continue to put pressure on him when that Turn comes out. If he check raises the Turn, then you have to decide what you want to do as there are tons of 'bad' River cards for such a wide range of hands he could have here ... strt, flush, A, K, 9. Bluff catching on that River probably wont work out for anyone in the long run ... short run it was a great 'read' and paid off but you are the one with stack in this hand and need to make him commit before the board gets any worse for you.Was this a bad call ... you thought it through and went with your read AND you were right. So in this situation it was not a bad call, but I think the point is don't put yourself in a position where you are making a polarizing decision in the first place by continuing to apply pressure on the Turn. I don't think you win in the long run making this call, but I am not sure you would see this line of betting very often either where you would be forced to make a call on the River. Not sure if the hand is replayed in 'real' time, so the amount of time to decide your next move on-line can tell you something also. There are plenty of people I play cash with that I would call down in this spot also, but the call in itself is not a long run winner. Hope those chips helped you progress much further into the tournament.

#8 HighwayStar

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:03 AM

With the stack to pot ratio left on the turn there is no need to do anything but shove. He has 2300 left with 4400 in the pot. No need to worry about any more of his actions.If you do bet and get shoved on you're going to be getting about 8 million : 1 to call so it would be absurd not to.If you were somewhat deeper this would be an interesting turn spot. If he had 5000+ behind you could consider all options on the turn.
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#9 colonel Feathers

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:56 PM

View PostHighwayStar, on 14 August 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

With the stack to pot ratio left on the turn there is no need to do anything but shove. He has 2300 left with 4400 in the pot. No need to worry about any more of his actions.If you do bet and get shoved on you're going to be getting about 8 million : 1 to call so it would be absurd not to.If you were somewhat deeper this would be an interesting turn spot. If he had 5000+ behind you could consider all options on the turn.
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#10 Acekob

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:32 PM

View Postiam5hashank, on 12 August 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

I really wanted to do that but i was little confused to go all in after my re-raise being called and turn being a diamond.

I can see how this could confuse you, but yet you chose to call the river when one of the worst possible cards hit. I tend to agree with calling river here as there will be a decent amount of bluffs while you're getting a very good price. But if you are going to call the river, then there is no reason for you not to shove the turn. If he has you beat already he will definitively bet river and get your chips. If not, well then you shoving turn will either make him pay extra to hit his outs, or give you the 6k pot without him having the chance to bink the river. This is a scenario where you don't really care about the times he has you beat, but you want to maximize your equity when he doesn't.

#11 Ank

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:19 AM

Hi,
not sure if you still wanted feedback on this thread since its over 2 weeks old but here is my two cents :)

To me it looks pretty standard what you did untill the turn, personally id just jam the turn and not see the river.. everything the villain has done upto this point looks super weak and can never ever have a real made hand in this spot. So Jam on the turn would be perferable to collect all the dead money thats out there, if we do get called we have decent equity against the villains range even if the villain's range consist of a pair and a diamond draw.

On the flop, with the stack ratio the villain would re shove over the top with anytype combo/two pair/set hands, then again his passive play rules out two pair/sets especially in the cut off position (like really whats he hoping to achieve limp in the cut off and hope the blinds have a monster and try and stack off.. /sarcasm).. so when he flats the flop, his hand basically is open..his hand range consist of middle/bottom pair or top pair with a bad kicker.. and we're crushing everything... this why its a easy shove on the turn.

River. The decision is very player dependant like the villains hand range can consist of a diamond as we've narrowed his hand range down to a pair and his kicker may consist of diamond.. his shove on the river looks very semi polarised and your getting a decent pot odds to make the call.


thats my two cents hope it was helpful :)

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