answer20, on 28 July 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:
To make such an impassioned argument and then to thrown out there that we should even consider check-folding this Flop really knocks down some of your 'credit' with quite a few folks I think. Are we supposed to thrown away AT suited because if we dont hit 2-pair or a draw then it's no good? Might as well muck it in pre-Flop and save all those chips for a better spot ... really!!I think one of the ideas that you are ignoring is that we are advocating that the size of the Turn bet (provided there is one) is giving us the same information that you are looking for with your check-raise AND NOW we have gained the knowledge of the Turn card without spending any extra chips. Most are giving the opponent tons of credit here if they are able to fire a 12K bet on the Turn with marginal hands. But our opponent doesn't have a marginal hand and is smart enough to know how to price us out of any draw we might have ... but is also more than willing to 'flip' (way ahead) for his stack now.I tend to agree that a check-raise could slow down an opponent, but if you are advocating a check-raise and following that up with a check on the Turn, then I would think most opponents would sense this as weak and pounce ... even with marginal hands ... and our 4k is lost. Why would you show aggression and then immediately let your opponent take the lead again? We have a marginal hand OOP, no harm in playing it that way until our opponent tells us to go away or we improve.What if we saw a 4-6k bet on the Turn? Now we are able to see the River for 'your' 8k price with the ability to fold on the River unless we improve. No one has really mentioned this aspect of the call on the Flop as of yet as we have all been focusing on the actual hand as played. It is so hard for some to try to discuss these hands when we know the results. Is a 6-8k Turn bet something we can 'accept' with our newly provided draw?I think another way that I am looking at this now is that I really am more intested in gaining inforamtion from the board as cheap as I can right now, being short-stacked, than pressing my opponent. My opponent will provide plenty of information after I get to see the Turn card for 4k.
Sorry I completely missed your post and never replied. Anyhow, allow me to address some of your points. Let's consider c/f on the flop. There's two questions to ask1) What are the chances we will improve on the turn2) Do we intend to c/f the turn to a standard betI think the answer to question #1 is we have very little chance, if any of improving. We don't really like our kicker, so an A doesn't necessarily make us jump for joy. And while a 10 will give us two pair, it also completes a straight and one of the 10s completes the flush. Frankly there's no card that can hit this turn where all fo a sudden I think I have this guy's number. Our chance to imporve really requires getting to the river.And, looking at what everyone here has said, we plan on c/f the turn to any standard bet, given that we now have the infomation we need (that apparently we didn't need a c/r flop to tell us).So, if we have little hope of improving, and we fully intend to continue to play the hand weak by c/f the turn, then I think it is a legitimate question to ask why on earth are we putting the 4K in by c/c the flop. The only logical reason is we hope our opponent doesn't bet the turn. I have made arguments for why this is a likelihood had we c/r the flop, but in this case we have shown weakness on two streets and I think it is highly likely our opponent will value bet a weaker hand here than he would in my c/r scenario, or even bluff/semi-bluff. He's just continuing to play and control the hand. So, again, why are we even calling the flop in this case? Its not fun to just fold when you flopped top pair, but I think just putting in 4K for absolutely no reason doesn't make any sense. Oh, I forgot, somehow donk's "let's see what happens" reason is all some players need.As far as your (and others') point about information and bet-sizing. I think I just have to disagree here. The whole point of this thread was that the original poster made a mistake. Now, maybe its a mistake some others like donk and trueace wouldn't have made. Maybe they just "knew" that the opponent's bet signalled that we were beat and that made it an easy fold. I don't see it that clearly. By playing weakly on the flop, we are basically inviting the opponent to continue his narrative on the turn. Now, I'm not going to sit here and say that it opens the floodgate to a wide vareity of bluffs, because this is a straightforward player. However, it does open the door for him to value bet some fairly marginal hands that may or may not have us beat, including semi-bluffs. In our actions to this point we've shown no strength and we've shown no interest in getting too involve in this pot. Now, unlike some others, I don't necessarily think this alternate line to my ideal play is horrible. We just fold and move on. However, if our intention is to try and win the hand, or at least make a play which has a better chance of winning the hand, I think we need to try and get to the river as cheaply as possible. I think our extra 4K on the flop shuts down most of the action on the turn and gets us there. Trueace, in some of his more coherant posts, seems to love the fact the we flopped top pair six handed and is aghast at the thought of turning top pair into a bluff.. Wouldn't it be nice to get to a showdown and see if we're good? I think by playing so weak, we virtually guarantee we aren't going to get to a showdown unless we're all in. And that's not likely going to end well for us.As for our turn check after c/r showing weakness, I already replied earlier, but I'll repeat it here. Yes it does show some weakness, but our opponent may just think we are being tricky with a monster and be less likely to try and find out. And even if they didn't think that, I believe the fact that we put in a third of our stack into the pot signals that we are not necessarily going away. I really think the c/r shuts down the turn action, unless they happen to catch a really good card for them (like a second pair).