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#61 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:57 AM

you're a ****ing idiot.
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#62 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:00 PM

View Postdonk4life, on 27 July 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

I'm not going to post anymore on this hand. I, as well as others, have presented a number of reasons why a c/r is just so ****ing wrong in this spot. I'm not going to type the same shit over and over again so you can post more bullshit on why you're right. If you don't want to ****ing listen then so be it. I have presented a number of ****ing reasons on why a c/r is terrible, look at your lack of reading comprehension you doucheag.I mean, your #2-5 is just so ****ing ridiculous since it's been said time and time again on why it's so ****ing wrong.Simply put, you are check/raising this flop in hopes that he has aj/aq and will slow down on the turn. You're also somewhat hoping that you get jammed on because it makes your decision easier. It doesn't, you can not fold once you check raise this flop, how do you not ****ing understand that point. You're also hoping for a fold because that rules out bluffs in his range. YOU DO NOT WANT TO FOLD OUT HIS BLUFFS. The reason we are folding the turn is because we now have a more defined range on our opponent and have determined to be better than ours.A straight forward player is probably jamming AQ on the turn, which they very well should. You've basically conceded the hand at the point and they should be going for value. AJ and AQ probably jam the flop a decent portion of the time to. ****, even draws may jam that flop a portion of the time. So great, you get jammed on and fold the best hand, check/raise really ****ing worked there didn't it. And don't ****ing tell me that players aren't capable of it. Yes they are, even straight forward ones. Straight forward players are capable of jamming with AQ over your check/raise, even AJ to an extent. Therefore, you are check/raising in hopes that he has one ****ing hand and will slow down so you get to show down cheaply.You do ****ing realize that if a club falls on the turn and he jams you have to fold. You could have ****ing foldign the turn without having to check/raise and saved yourself chips. You also do ****ing realize that if a club falls on the turn and we didn't check/raise, an opponent without a club in his hand is probably slowing down with AQ or AJ as well. THEREFORE, YOU SAVED YOURSELF ****ING MONEY BY NOT CHECK/RAISING AND GETTING TO SHOW DOWN CHEAPLY. AND YOU CAN EASILY FOLD IF YOU'RE BET INTO. YOU ACCOMPLISH THE SAME ****ING THING BY CHECK/CALLING FOR A LOT LESS MONEY.If the entire point of this hand is to tread likely, check/raising is the worst thing you can do. You can gain the same amount of information by check/calling while keeping the pot small.AND IF WE FEEL THE GUY IS BLUFFING, THEN WE DO NOT WANT TO CHECK/RAISE AND FORCE HIM TO FOLD. IF WE CONTINUE TO THINK HE IS BLUFFING ON THE TURN THAT IS WHY WE ARE CALLING. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR HAND WE HAVE CLEARL DEFINED WE DO NOT THINK HE IS BLUFFING, THAT IS WHY WE ARE FOLDING. WE DID NOT NEED TO CHECK/RAISE AND LOSE AN ADDITIONAL 6-8K CHIPS BY CHECK/RAISING. WE HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION WE NEED TO KNOW BY CHECK/CALLING.I mean, I have laid out why a check/raise is ****ing horrible. I am done responding to you in this thread. If you don't ****ing see how ****ing stupid it is to check/raise this flop, then there's just no ****ing hope .
Yo claim that "you can't fold once you check raise [...explative-laiden nonsense]" I say why not? I find it a much easier fold having check-raised than folding without having a clue what was going on. But again, maybe mindless folding is something you are familiar with in your poker experiences.Thanks for your valuable insight into this hand, donk. You will be missed on this thread.P.S, you might want to get that sticky shift key checked out.

#63 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:03 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on 27 July 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

you're a ****ing idiot.
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#64 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:06 PM

lol, love how you have never responded to any of my strategy questions that I ask or dispute anything to do w/ the fold equity or anything of that matter. keep going buddy! oh, and long rambling that you keep posting just are laughable
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#65 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:10 PM

by c/r'ing and folding to a jam, is our hand equivalent to 72o or any other bluffs? Can you not do any hand reading by bet-sizing? How do you have any FE by c/r'ing flop? And omg LOL at you saying you think the best play is not to just c/f flop. Just amazing. Pure hero here
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#66 irishguy

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:11 PM

I really fail to see how check raising gives us any more info then check calling and him firing again on the turn...he calls cr = he likes his hand..he double barrels = he likes his hand. If he double barrel bluffs here good on him we still have plenty of chips and we move on. If we cr and don't call a shove knowing that he could be shoving a draw we are burning money long term being afraid to coin flip with dead money in the middle. Check folding is likely the only possible worse line to take then check raising..:
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#67 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:13 PM

oh and worried about getting it in as a coinflip in a tournament is another amazing strategy. Have to be willing to flip in a tournamentNot saying it to this hand in particular, but saying that the logic is flawed. Again.
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#68 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:38 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on 27 July 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

oh and worried about getting it in as a coinflip in a tournament is another amazing strategy. Have to be willing to flip in a tournamentNot saying it to this hand in particular, but saying that the logic is flawed. Again.
I didn't say I was worried about flipping in general... i said if I were willing to flip I would have shoved pre-flop. Flipping when there is a fairly good chance you are dominated too is not what I want to do, and that is the situation we found ourselves in after the flop. Maybe you like to call all-ins when you're a flip, at best. I don't."by c/r'ing and folding to a jam, is our hand equivalent to 72o or any other bluffs?"No, because 72o has zero showdown value and has very little chance of improving. We have both here."Can you not do any hand reading by bet-sizing?"You can, but that is not a precise science. I think its an awfully risky point in the tournament to go on nothing but bet-sizing to determine your read."How do you have any FE by c/r'ing flop?"By definition, whenever you raise you have FE, since folding is one of the oucomes that could occur. This doesn't mean you have A LOT of fold equity, and I don't mean to infer you do. I think its highly unlikely you would get a hand that has you beat to fold here... but there are players who would fold AJ/AQ to your check raise. They know that by calling, they are perhaps committing themselves to a really bad situation and it just isn't worth it. Maybe none of these hyper-laggy players, but there are people out there. My guess is you have something in the neighborhood of at least 10% FE in this situation. Remember, they could easily have been betting the flop with complete air."And omg LOL at you saying you think the best play is not to just c/f flop. Just amazing. Pure hero here"You were on a roll posting insightful, pertinent and somewhat interesting questions, and then you come up with this complete dud of a statement. Oh well, I guess I have to give you some credit for the previous comments.

#69 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:47 PM

you have said many time, "if we check-raise, and villain jams on us, we can fold knowing we are way behind" or w/e you want to state. How is this not turning our hand into a bluff. All we are doing is putting more $ out there w/ LITTLE information and HOPE to check it down. WHEN WE CAN JUST PUT 4k in the pot and figure out the same stuff! Jesus. Look at sizing, timing tells, other things. You are so ****ing narrow minded. And jesus, please enlighten the community why c/f is the best play. Ya, lets just fold top pair decent kicker. 6 handed. on a coordinated board.I wish I was as true to my word as Donk and could quit posting in this thread b/c you will never change your view on this hand (which is completely flawed), but maybeeeee you can figure it out!OH, and for other people reading this thread. I really think reading Donk's posts about this hand is the complete nuts and is really good stuff. The interesting part of the hand is the turn play
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#70 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:49 PM

View Postirishguy, on 27 July 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

I really fail to see how check raising gives us any more info then check calling and him firing again on the turn...he calls cr = he likes his hand..he double barrels = he likes his hand.If he double barrel bluffs here good on him we still have plenty of chips and we move on. If we cr and don't call a shove knowing that he could be shoving a draw we are burning money long term being afraid to coin flip with dead money in the middle.Check folding is likely the only possible worse line to take then check raising..:
I disagree with you that if he calls the c/r, he likes his hand, unless what you mean is he likes his hand enough to call, but not enough to stake his tournament life on it.This is the subtle difference you are missing. I think a call of our check raise rules out the the chance that he has a true monster (2p or better) and this means that, barring him hitting a draw on the turn, we are likely to get to the river without another bet.Think of it this way... you have some draw... your opponent has shown some strength and appears to have committed himself to the pot. Are you really going to stake your tournament life by betting the turn big and hoping your opponent goes away or catching your draw with one card to come. I don't think so. You are much more likely to take the free card when the opportunity is presented.And so, I think it is safe to assume our opponent would not bet the turn on a draw in this situation.As far as check-folding the flop is concerned, I'm a bit conflicted. Again, there really isn't anything that can hit the turn that is all of a sudden going to make us think we are definitely good, and check calling is going to make a very hard decision for us in the face of a turn bet from the opponent. So, what is the value in throwing that 4K in to call the flop, even if we think we are ahead here. I think if our plan is to lead out the turn in the hope of stealing the pot, then perhaps check-call is better than check-fold, but I think we have been going on the assumption that we would check the turn here in most situations.

#71 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:54 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on 27 July 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

you have said many time, "if we check-raise, and villain jams on us, we can fold knowing we are way behind" or w/e you want to state. How is this not turning our hand into a bluff. All we are doing is putting more $ out there w/ LITTLE information and HOPE to check it down. WHEN WE CAN JUST PUT 4k in the pot and figure out the same stuff! Jesus. Look at sizing, timing tells, other things. You are so ****ing narrow minded.And jesus, please enlighten the community why c/f is the best play. Ya, lets just fold top pair decent kicker. 6 handed. on a coordinated board.I wish I was as true to my word as Donk and could quit posting in this thread b/c you will never change your view on this hand (which is completely flawed), but maybeeeee you can figure it out!OH, and for other people reading this thread. I really think reading Donk's posts about this hand is the complete nuts and is really good stuff.The interesting part of the hand is the turn play
I'm not sure I ever said the c/r is not a bluff. I don't know where you got that. I think I am one of the few who is open to the notion that we are likely betting here from behind. Nevertheless, I have stated repeatedly that getting the opponent to fold the flop is neither the primary goal, nor the primary expectation.I guess you must be an onlne player. You have mentioned timing tells a few times. I can tell you that timing tells mean very little in live play and are more likely to be a reverse tell than an actual one. That being said, we don't have a lot to go by as far as behavior and tells in this hand. Yes we have bet size, but I don't think that is necessarily much to go on. Maybe you have reading bet size down cold, so i guess for you, and your kreskin-like ilk, maybe you can weak-play this hand and always know what's going on just based on that. For the rest of us, the c/r flop accomplishes the task of making the rest of our decisions in this hand a lot easier.As for c/f, I'm not sure that is the best play. I think I still like c/r more since that actually gives me a chance to win the hand. But c/f has merit above and beyon c/c if we intend to check the turn, because we can't expect to improve sufficiently enough to be able to make an easy and good decision on the turn. So we are putting 4K in the pot just hoping our opponent lifts his foot off the gas. We don't have a particularly good reason to believe he will.As far as changing my mind is concerned, I'll do so when I get some good analysis that counters mine. While I don't necessarily think any play in this istuation is horrible, I stand by my assertion that c/r is the better EV play because it gives us the best chance of winning the hand from behind and gives us a slightly better chance of winning the hand from ahead.So you say you think Donk's posts are just dreamy. I, for one, am shocked. I never believed bromance was a real thing, but I'm starting to.

#72 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

But turning top pair into a bluff is a horrendous play. How you have yet to realize that is just absurd and almost to the extent of ignorance. So as I said, our hand is equivalent here to 72o or any other random hand which is such a major leak.You're really just setting money on fire
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#73 DJ Vu

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:20 PM

akashenk's position seems to be this:A check-raise will accomplish the following:1. Get bad hands to fold.2. Get marginal hands to call and check it down to the river.3. Get better hands to shove and then you can fold.And then the argument against that seems to be:1. That's not the best result.2. There's no reason to assume it will simply be checked down.3. Those same hands will bet the turn anyway, so check-call, check-fold gets the same result and saves money.Is that about it?

#74 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:23 PM

Ummm, in a vacuum, pretty much
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#75 Tehtoe

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:26 PM

Reasons to bet/raise in poker:1) To get value2) As a bluff3) TO PUT THE OPPONENT ON NOTICE THAT WE HAVE A HAND/informationVery enlightening!

#76 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:29 PM

View PostDJ Vu, on 27 July 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

akashenk's position seems to be this:A check-raise will accomplish the following:1. Get bad hands to fold.2. Get marginal hands to call and check it down to the river.3. Get better hands to shove and then you can fold.And then the argument against that seems to be:1. That's not the best result.2. There's no reason to assume it will simply be checked down.3. Those same hands will bet the turn anyway, so check-call, check-fold gets the same result and saves money.Is that about it?
I guess, but I think your arguments against are fairly weak.1) It's not the best result, but its an ok result with such mediocre holdings.2) There's plenty of reason it will be checked on the turn, since we have eliminated monster hands and bluffs to a great degree. People don't typically double barrel marginal hands when they don't think their opponent will fold.3) if you are prepared to auto-fold to a bet on the turn in this situation, then you shouldn't be putting in the 4K call, since your hand is highly unlikely to improve on the turn. This is why c/f is probably a better play long term than c/c on the flop.

#77 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:35 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on 27 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

But turning top pair into a bluff is a horrendous play. How you have yet to realize that is just absurd and almost to the extent of ignorance.So as I said, our hand is equivalent here to 72o or any other random hand which is such a major leak.You're really just setting money on fire
i love how you guys act like we have the nuts here. Oh my god, don't turn my top pair crap kicker into a bluff!!! The Horror, the horror!this is your typical argument...Doing xyz is a horrible play. Don't you realize how horrible it is? Its absurd you don't realize it.TrueAce, I hope your not a lawyer, or a lobyist, or a salesperson, or pretty much anyone whos job it is to argue a position.BTW, I already explained how our hand is not like 72o. Please, make another post where you claim our hand is like 72o, I look forward to repeating myself.

#78 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:53 PM

View PostTehtoe, on 27 July 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Reasons to bet/raise in poker:1) To get value2) As a bluff3) TO PUT THE OPPONENT ON NOTICE THAT WE HAVE A HAND/informationVery enlightening!
I'm not sure how the bolded part of #3 is different from #2, but ok.

#79 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:18 PM

View Postakashenk, on 27 July 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

i love how you guys act like we have the nuts here. Oh my god, don't turn my top pair crap kicker into a bluff!!! The Horror, the horror!this is your typical argument...Doing xyz is a horrible play. Don't you realize how horrible it is? Its absurd you don't realize it.TrueAce, I hope your not a lawyer, or a lobyist, or a salesperson, or pretty much anyone whos job it is to argue a position.BTW, I already explained how our hand is not like 72o. Please, make another post where you claim our hand is like 72o, I look forward to repeating myself.

View PostTrueAce13, on 27 July 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

you're a ****ing idiot.

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#80 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:20 PM

Lol at you saying what you did in that quote. I give sooooooooo many valid reasons on why your play completely sucks, but your a ****ing ignorant troll who doesn't open their mind to the correct play.
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