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#41 akashenk

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:20 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on 26 July 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

you win. I'm officially broken. god, please teach me more man. Can't wait to hear it
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#42 TrueAce13

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:24 PM

Even getting out trolled. Something must be off....besides your logic in this hand
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#43 kobe2odom8

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:29 PM

bdt
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#44 donk4life

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

View Postakashenk, on 26 July 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

donk, I think you and i have the same philosphy. The only difference is, you think it is unlikely he will 2-barrel bluff this pot. I tend to agree (though it seems to be what trueace is counting on), but I believe my c/r on the flop pretty much guarantees he won't and it also introduces some fold equity. A check/call just makes our turn decision that much harder since we haven't represented much strength and the villain could be comfortable value betting the turn with lots of hands that have us beat.. and thus preventing us from seeing that all-important river.
If he has a hand that has a beat then we shouldn't seeing a river in the first place unless we are getting the right price (which we aren't).You are basing your entire logic that the hand is going to play out the way you want it to. You think you're going to c/r the flop and he'll flat, which makes the hand simpler but it really doesn't. Flatting isn't his only option, he could fold, which means we missed value by c/ring, or he could jam, which means we are behind 100% of the time but we can't fold because that would essentially mean we are turning A10 on an ace high flop into a bluff. Yeah, sure, it guarantees the villain won't two barrel in this spot, but if we believe he is bluffing then we are losing a ton of value by c/ring because he's just going to fold all of his bluffs. You want to c/r this flop because you think he will slow down with aj or aq, which I think is incredibly flawed because if you check the turn I think villain bets those hands quite often. Like I said, you think this hand is going to play out perfectly in your mind where if you c/r the villain will slow down with aj or aq and you lose a smaller pot. But, I think it's stupid to c/r the flop then check the turn, you should be betting with the intention of getting in which is also silly since we are never ahead in that spot. But, that's only one scenario of many that could happen.You can't examine this hand from one perspective. You have to take into account all ranges, all possible options. a check/call, check/decide line is fine. So what if we check/call the flop and check/fold the turn. Yeah, we picked up a myriad of outs on the turn, but if we aren't getting the price to call then we can't call, plain and simple.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#45 TrueAce13

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:26 PM

donk w/ the post of the thread.doubt you're right tho
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#46 donk4life

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:30 PM

Honestly, you should only c/r this flop if you think villain will call with worse. If that's the case, you are essentially deeming his range to only be draws, and weaker aces. Which the only weaker ace that might be in his range is a8, and that's a pretty big stretch.What are you going to do if you c/r the flop and a club falls on the turn? c/f? then why the hell did you c/r in the first place? You bloated a pot you didn't need to bloat when you could have gotten away from the hand cheaply. You didn't find out anymore information than you would have if you c/c. And you can't say, "well then why are you check/calling the flop if you're just going to check/fold the turn." That's flawed thinking. We base our decisions off our reads. These reads come from a number things, including player tendencies, bet sizing, timing tells, etc. On the flop, there is a wide range of hands villain could be betting, so while it's narrowed from preflop, it's still fairly wide which makes c/c better. Betting is also decent in this spot. On the turn, we can limit the villains range sooooooooooooooo much just based on his bet sizing. He is never folding to an all in with that sizing. So it becomes a numbers game. If we are getting the right price to hit our draw or even hit two pair then we go with it, if not, you fold and move on to the next hand.It's not a bad thing to check/call, then check/fold against some villains. These players are pretty straight forward, they aren't going to fire two streets into you unless they're decent and have some concept of your range, or if their batshit crazy. We know they aren't the latter, and judging by his bet sizing on the turn he probably isn't the former either.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#47 answer20

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:30 AM

Had a nice post ready to go last night and my page expired!! It seems as if donk has taken the lead here and no one is taking him to task anymore. One of the great aspects of this poker game is that we can take the same/similar hands and play them differently based on the other factors ... position, opponent image, tournament standings, stack size .. et. The ability to consider all of those options in a short period of time, without giving off tells, is an even greater aspect of the game that draws me to it. Obviously the passion for the game comes out in our posts with the name calling and such, thus showing some personality.We have all been concerned with what to do with the Flop bet facing us ... I advocated just calling and more than likely folding on the Turn, even though we picked up some nuts outs, due to the size of the bet placed by a straight forward opponent. This leaves us with 20bb, which is a workable stack at this stage of the tournament.I also felt if were to consider a check-raise that we were automatically committed to our stack going in so why not just shove, which could be the only way to get some better hands to fold. This apparently isnt the case as some of us are willing to go to the next hand with as little as 14bb ... I am not really buying into that unless when compared to other stacks at the table it actually could push people off hands for 'steals' pre-Flop. I would consider a 20bb stack much more steal ready than 14bb. I dont have enough tournament experience with these short stacks and that is why I enjoy taking in your comments.The other issue with the check raise is we lose value to hands we are ahead of at the time. I have been called-out on this site for placing bets 'to see where we are at' and although I will still continue to use that phrase ... I am not advocating this idea with such a shallow stack. Being OOP AND committing myself to the pot even if I am behind, then I would shove before I raise here, but I dont think I would choose either of these lines very often.One issue that hasn't come up much is why didnt we lead-out on the Flop? Is that a better play as we did open pre-Flop and we are looking at a favorable Flop for our hand? With us now knowing the opponents holdings this would have been bad news and we would have put in 2 more bets before our opponent raised us on the Turn with the double flush draw out there. Cant imagine our opponent raising on the Flop with a set here. What do we do after we bet 3-4K on Flop and 6-8K on Turn and facing a shove?I would like to see some comments on both the 'value' of a 14bb stack (vr 20bb, or are they the same) and whether or not we can get away from our hand if we lead out on the Flop and Turn and are now faced with a shove.

#48 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:21 AM

Re donk: First off, at no point have I claimed the check/call on the flop was a "bad play", at least to my knowledge. I just think the check raise is better. And obviously, check/fold the turn is probably the best move. I'll get to the remaining stack size in a bit in response to answer20’s post. But first, to your points. I am not assuming anything when I c/r the flop as far as what the villain will do. I think it is fairly likely that the villain bet the flop pretty weak, but of course, there is the chance he is strong. The purpose of the c/r is to rule out that he is really strong, because if he were, he would in all likelihood shove over our c/r here. Result.. we get away from a bad spot losing 8K. Now, if he calls, here’s what happens. First off, I disagree with your assertion that a check on the turn would likely elicit another bet from AJ/AQ. If the villain were a maniac, then all bets are off and he could do anything. But all evidence suggests he is a straightforward player. Our c/r is going to make him think we are committed to the pot. There is very little chance he will bluff here. There is very little chance he will value bet anything less than A/K since we could have flopped lots of hands that have him beat and will call with big draws as well. There’s just no reason for him to bet a marginal hand here and doing so is a very risky play. So I think the c/r on the flop induces a ck/ck on the turn a large percentage of the time. This would have been even more the case if a club hit the turn because now he has to worry about us either already having a flush, or having even more outs on the river with a big club in our hand. So, as it stood, my feeling is, the villain will only bet when he is quite strong. So it just comes down to deciding whether chasing our flush draw is worth it. For 12K or whatever the villain is likely to bet here, I don’t think it is.I think the mistake, for lack of a better word, in your analysis, is you are playing this hand as if it is earlier in the tournament and we have lots of chips to play around with. In those situations, it’s alright (or at least more alright) to have a “let’s call and see what happens next” strategy. You can play small ball. You can go into turns and rivers not quite sure where you’re at because the risk of ruin, or consequences of you being wrong or unlucky are relatively small. In this situation, however, you can’t afford to allow the villain to control the pot and the action. There’s just too many ways they can cause you to lose a hand you might have won, or cause you to make a mistake which are both devastating results at this point in the tournament. The c/r obviously isn’t pure small ball and pot control, but I think it does clarify your opponents holdings to a great degree and it also is more likely to keep the pot small on the turn.Now, of course, the way this hand played out is a good example of why A10 suited is a hard hand to play in any situation, but with stacks this short especially. By putting in a standard pre-flop raise in an attempt to steal with this hand, you’re really hoping for a flushy flop. When you don’t get one, all sorts of bad things can happen. There’s a case to be made that a bigger raise, even perhaps an All-in pre-flop would have been better. Riskier, certainly, but less prone to mistakes after the flop J. In this case, you actually wouldn’t mind seeing 99 across the table… until the flop that is.Re: Answer20, as far as stack sizes are concerned… it obviously depends on the blind sizes, ante sizes and structure. I believe there are various schools of thought which typically settle around 10-15 BB being the shove/fold threshold. 20BB or 25BB are not quite there yet, but the thing is, a single hand played and lost pretty much puts you there. That’s why this is a precarious position to be in as well. In my analysis, the aggressive c/r on the flop could leave me with only ~15BB if I ran into big hand and had to fold, as opposed to the ~19BB I would be left with in a check/call/fold scenario. In my mind there’s not enough of a difference in these stack sized to warrant shying away from the more aggressive strategy.As to some of your other points… In my mind, the c/r doesn’t commit you to the pot, but it is intended to make your opponent think you are and play accordingly. The fact that several of you think you are committing to the pot makes me believe this supposition of what your opponent would think is right on.Also, a lead out on the flop is pretty standard, and is therefore not what I would consider a bad play. The problem with it here, at lease compared to other options, is that it opens the door for your opponent to put a lot of heat on you right away when you are holding a marginal hand. If the opponent shoves in the face of your c/r, you know you are beat, so a fold is easy. If the opponent shoves or puts in a big raise in the face of your standard lead out, you really have no idea what to do. Of course, a fold is likely the smartest choice, but it certainly isn’t an easy decision and you could be making a big mistake whatever you choose. It should be clear from my posts that I prefer to make easy decisions. A flop check makes the hand easier to play.As for your last question, I don’t see a tremendous amount of difference between 14BB or 20BB. A standard hand played where you think you are ahead, but are not sure, and therefore bet the flop/turn looking to check/call the river is going to cost you at least 10-15BB. That makes playing a hand this way when you only start out with 20-25BB really precarious.

#49 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:50 AM

You're just an idiot that has no desire to open your mind at all. You're completely closed minded about this hand. Donk and I have to come to terms w the fact that you will never get better and just come to terms w that
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#50 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:59 AM

I'm glad you have come to terms with something, trueace. That's the first step to recovery. Now you just have to work on those other deamons.BTW, you keep mentioning donk as if you're simpatico. I assume donk is perfectly capable of posting his own opinions without having you usurp his thoughts.

#51 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:03 AM

Lol I feel that Donk doesn't mind that I speak for him as well in this situation
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#52 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:31 AM

View PostTrueAce13, on 27 July 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

Lol I feel that Donk doesn't mind that I speak for him as well in this situation
Whether he minds or not isn't really the point. Its just creepy and it makes it look like you need a binky. My read here is you lack the courage of your convictions, so you sprinkle in references to other posters in a veiled attempt to lend their legitimacy to your posts. Now maybe such a strategy would work with long time viewers of these forums, as perhaps Donk has built up some credibility, which you clearly lack. However, it is less likely to work with a newbie poster such as myself because I have relatively little reason to believe donk knows what he is talking about any more than you. Of course, this thread leads me more in that direction, but I'm not quite there yet.Anyhow, put your big boy pants on and stand for yourself.

#53 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:49 AM

Lol you are a straight troll. None of your strategy has any substance bc everything you have said contradicts itself from other statements you have made. I feel that my results/history w this forum gives me a lot of credibility. Donk and I are good friends. We have spoke about this hand outside the forum trying to figure out what the best play is. You never have opened your mind up to any other opinion and when you read something, you stay closed minded and keep arguing your point. While it is nice to be passionate about your opinion, sometimes you should listen to players that have a lot of experience. As Donk says, you keep thinking this hand is going to play out exactly how you imagine it, which is completely flawed. But whatever, keep trolling away. You're doing a great job, but you will never get better at poker by having the mindset that you so. Hopefully you will change it, but if not, you will continue to make the poker community profitable.
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#54 donk4life

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:51 AM

View Postakashenk, on 27 July 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

Re donk: First off, at no point have I claimed the check/call on the flop was a "bad play", at least to my knowledge. I just think the check raise is better. And obviously, check/fold the turn is probably the best move. I'll get to the remaining stack size in a bit in response to answer20’s post. But first, to your points. I am not assuming anything when I c/r the flop as far as what the villain will do. I think it is fairly likely that the villain bet the flop pretty weak, but of course, there is the chance he is strong. The purpose of the c/r is to rule out that he is really strong, because if he were, he would in all likelihood shove over our c/r here. Result.. we get away from a bad spot losing 8K. Now, if he calls, here’s what happens. First off, I disagree with your assertion that a check on the turn would likely elicit another bet from AJ/AQ. If the villain were a maniac, then all bets are off and he could do anything. But all evidence suggests he is a straightforward player. Our c/r is going to make him think we are committed to the pot. There is very little chance he will bluff here. There is very little chance he will value bet anything less than A/K since we could have flopped lots of hands that have him beat and will call with big draws as well. There’s just no reason for him to bet a marginal hand here and doing so is a very risky play. So I think the c/r on the flop induces a ck/ck on the turn a large percentage of the time. This would have been even more the case if a club hit the turn because now he has to worry about us either already having a flush, or having even more outs on the river with a big club in our hand. So, as it stood, my feeling is, the villain will only bet when he is quite strong. So it just comes down to deciding whether chasing our flush draw is worth it. For 12K or whatever the villain is likely to bet here, I don’t think it is.I think the mistake, for lack of a better word, in your analysis, is you are playing this hand as if it is earlier in the tournament and we have lots of chips to play around with. In those situations, it’s alright (or at least more alright) to have a “let’s call and see what happens next” strategy. You can play small ball. You can go into turns and rivers not quite sure where you’re at because the risk of ruin, or consequences of you being wrong or unlucky are relatively small. In this situation, however, you can’t afford to allow the villain to control the pot and the action. There’s just too many ways they can cause you to lose a hand you might have won, or cause you to make a mistake which are both devastating results at this point in the tournament. The c/r obviously isn’t pure small ball and pot control, but I think it does clarify your opponents holdings to a great degree and it also is more likely to keep the pot small on the turn.Now, of course, the way this hand played out is a good example of why A10 suited is a hard hand to play in any situation, but with stacks this short especially. By putting in a standard pre-flop raise in an attempt to steal with this hand, you’re really hoping for a flushy flop. When you don’t get one, all sorts of bad things can happen. There’s a case to be made that a bigger raise, even perhaps an All-in pre-flop would have been better. Riskier, certainly, but less prone to mistakes after the flop J. In this case, you actually wouldn’t mind seeing 99 across the table… until the flop that is.
Do you really not see how incredibly flawed the bolded statement is? You are taking top pair, check/raising it, then folding it to a shove. Do you really not see how ****ing stupid that is? You are losing more by c/ring and folding to a jam then check/calling and folding to a turn bet. How do you not ****ing see that? We gain the exact amoutn of information by check/calling and check/deciding on the turn that we do by check/raising. And if you can't see that after the dozens of posts that people have made in this thread then there really is no ****ing point in arguing it anymore.Your entire post is still based off assumptions. You're assuming AJ, AQ will check it down, which you can't rule out. You're assuming that a club won't fall on the turn, shit, you're even assuming he won't flat you with sets in this spot. You are taking this hand and examining from the way you want it to play out.And trueace can speak for me whenever he wants. Him and I share a lot of the same thoughts but we aren't so ****ing obstinate to learn different points of view. You however, clearly do not see any flaw in your logic, so there's no point in arguing it anymore.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#55 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:45 AM

I am quite open to seeing flaws in my logic, if those flaws are illuminated. That hasn't really occurred. All you have done is present a case for why check/call is not a horrible play. That's fine. You haven't put any sort of dent into my argument that check/raise has benefits. You seem to be operating on the basis that anything is possible... that our opponent is capable of making any play under the sun, so the best course of action is the most timid one. That's all well and good, but if anything is possible, then there's really no reason to discuss strategy. On the contrary, I happen to think that players will often act rationally, particularly if they are the solid/straightforward variety described in this thread. Of course, they may make mistakes, but it is hard enough trying to figure out what they're up to when they know what they are doing, never mind trying to figure out what they're up to when they don't.I presented a case for why c/r the flop will provide tangible benefits:1) it introduces fold equity (a small benefit, for sure, but tangible)2) it helps us define our opponents range. You say they are capable of flatting a made hand to our c/r. I say, perhaps, but it isn't at all likely. Any flat, IMO, basically means our opponent is either on the come or doesn't feel particularly confident in his hand at that point. This is real information which you have no chance of obtaining by just ck/call.3) it shuts down the bluff opportunity from our opponent (again, a small benefit % wise, but important IMO. Who wants to fold the best hand at this point in the tournament?)4) it makes our turn decision that much easier (because of #2/3 above)5) it vastly increases the likelihood that we will get to see the river cheaply over just ck/call. This benefit cannot be understated, particularly since we picked up a pretty important draw on the turn.Now, in all your huffing and puffing, you have failed to address any of these benefits in a way other than, we can't be 100% certain what the opponent will do, so we should proceed in as weak a manner as possible. You make it seem like folding to a flop shove and losing 8K when we know for sure we are beat is worse than folding to a turn shove and losing 4K when we have no idea what's going on. I would disagree since the former is a decisioin which was made rationally and the latter is more of a guess. There are plenty of arguments to be made why playing this hand in the first place, or playing it the way it was played pre-flop are mistakes. However, I am a firm believer in the concept that you should make the best decision/play you can when its your turn to act at various points in the hand, regardless of what occurred previously. If you just want to throw your hands up in the middle of this hand and say, go ahead villain, its yours, I have no idea what's going on, I'm not going to put up a fight, then I think check/call the flop is fine. But sometimes you have to fight for a pot. Sometimes you have to actually play poker instead of just watching cards turn over and hoping for the best. I you're looking to make a +EV play against the wide variety of marginal hands our Villain can have in this spot, then I think the c/r, or perhaps even c/fold are better plays than ck/call.P.S, again you brought up the club on the turn scenario. It seems like you didn't read my post where I said this would be a good thing for us because it would further slow down our oponent if he's marginal. I guess, in addition to thoughts (brain?), you and trueace share a lack of reading comprehension.

#56 donk4life

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:04 AM

I'm not going to post anymore on this hand. I, as well as others, have presented a number of reasons why a c/r is just so ****ing wrong in this spot. I'm not going to type the same shit over and over again so you can post more bullshit on why you're right. If you don't want to ****ing listen then so be it. I have presented a number of ****ing reasons on why a c/r is terrible, look at your lack of reading comprehension you doucheag.I mean, your #2-5 is just so ****ing ridiculous since it's been said time and time again on why it's so ****ing wrong.Simply put, you are check/raising this flop in hopes that he has aj/aq and will slow down on the turn. You're also somewhat hoping that you get jammed on because it makes your decision easier. It doesn't, you can not fold once you check raise this flop, how do you not ****ing understand that point. You're also hoping for a fold because that rules out bluffs in his range. YOU DO NOT WANT TO FOLD OUT HIS BLUFFS. The reason we are folding the turn is because we now have a more defined range on our opponent and have determined to be better than ours.A straight forward player is probably jamming AQ on the turn, which they very well should. You've basically conceded the hand at the point and they should be going for value. AJ and AQ probably jam the flop a decent portion of the time to. ****, even draws may jam that flop a portion of the time. So great, you get jammed on and fold the best hand, check/raise really ****ing worked there didn't it. And don't ****ing tell me that players aren't capable of it. Yes they are, even straight forward ones. Straight forward players are capable of jamming with AQ over your check/raise, even AJ to an extent. Therefore, you are check/raising in hopes that he has one ****ing hand and will slow down so you get to show down cheaply.You do ****ing realize that if a club falls on the turn and he jams you have to fold. You could have ****ing foldign the turn without having to check/raise and saved yourself chips. You also do ****ing realize that if a club falls on the turn and we didn't check/raise, an opponent without a club in his hand is probably slowing down with AQ or AJ as well. THEREFORE, YOU SAVED YOURSELF ****ING MONEY BY NOT CHECK/RAISING AND GETTING TO SHOW DOWN CHEAPLY. AND YOU CAN EASILY FOLD IF YOU'RE BET INTO. YOU ACCOMPLISH THE SAME ****ING THING BY CHECK/CALLING FOR A LOT LESS MONEY.If the entire point of this hand is to tread likely, check/raising is the worst thing you can do. You can gain the same amount of information by check/calling while keeping the pot small.AND IF WE FEEL THE GUY IS BLUFFING, THEN WE DO NOT WANT TO CHECK/RAISE AND FORCE HIM TO FOLD. IF WE CONTINUE TO THINK HE IS BLUFFING ON THE TURN THAT IS WHY WE ARE CALLING. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR HAND WE HAVE CLEARL DEFINED WE DO NOT THINK HE IS BLUFFING, THAT IS WHY WE ARE FOLDING. WE DID NOT NEED TO CHECK/RAISE AND LOSE AN ADDITIONAL 6-8K CHIPS BY CHECK/RAISING. WE HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION WE NEED TO KNOW BY CHECK/CALLING.I mean, I have laid out why a check/raise is ****ing horrible. I am done responding to you in this thread. If you don't ****ing see how ****ing stupid it is to check/raise this flop, then there's just no ****ing hope .

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#57 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:10 AM

Lets break this down...

View Postakashenk, on 27 July 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

I presented a case for why c/r the flop will provide tangible benefits:1) it introduces fold equity (a small benefit, for sure, but tangible)This is completely false. We are doing the exact opposite than introducing fold equity, we are actually giving villain the right price to draw by just clicking it back. There is 11k in the pot, giving villain another 4 to call. He needs 36% equity to call this flop bet profitable. Guess what, he has that equity
Was gonna respond to the rest of this list, but Donk kinda hit it on the head. Again. Who woulda guessed it! Really wish we still had online poker so we could get better!
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#58 irishguy

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:11 AM

So let me get this straight: you're saying we min check raise the flop and if he calls we're beat but he doesn't love his hand and if he was really strong he'd shove over our check raise? So we fold out hands that we beat-and I'm not really sure how you figure we gain any information here-if he's got combo draw type hands he's def either shoving on us or calling a min raise. We essentially turn our hand into a bluff but then when a good card comes on the turn to continue our bluff/semi bluff you're saying check fold??
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#59 TrueAce13

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:13 AM

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#60 akashenk

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:50 AM

View Postirishguy, on 27 July 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

So let me get this straight: you're saying we min check raise the flop and if he calls we're beat but he doesn't love his hand and if he was really strong he'd shove over our check raise?So we fold out hands that we beat-and I'm not really sure how you figure we gain any information here-if he's got combo draw type hands he's def either shoving on us or calling a min raise. We essentially turn our hand into a bluff but then when a good card comes on the turn to continue our bluff/semi bluff you're saying check fold??
I'm not necessarily hoping for or expecting a fold from our check min-raise, despite donk's repetative assertions and stuck SHIFT KEY. What I am trying to accomplish is getting to the river with a marginal hand that might hold up or improve. If they happen to fold the flop, then fine. What's wrong with winning a pot right there with such a marginal hand? Who cares if the villain is dominated. Unless they are a bad player, ie we need to rely on them making mistakes in order to get value, they are not going to put any more money into this pot anyhow. Now, if they fold a marginal hand that happens to be better than ours, like AJ/AQ, then that's a tremendous result for us, though I obviously am not counting on it.The information we gain is simple (so simple I'm not sure why some of you don't see it). If we check call the flop, then we have no idea what our opoonent has when they bet the turn after we check. They could be betting for value. They could be throwing a second barrel out there given the weakness we have shown. They could have a big draw. The bottom line is, we have no idea. It is likely safest for us to fold, having lost only 4K, but that doesn't mean it is a good fold. Or, on the other hand we could play a hunch, or make a misread, and make a bad play.. bye bye tournament (this is what actually happened). None of these sound like great outcomes.Now, look at it after we check/raise. If the villian has us beat, or has a big draw, they are likely to shove here. That's great. We get to fold knowing we were either beat or faced some sort of coin flip situation. I don't know about you, but I'm not looking to flip for all my chips here. If I were, I would have shoved pre-flop. Anyhow, most likely the villain will just call our re-reraise. Now, I contend that pretty much any card that hits the turn is not going to help us, and pretty much any card that hits the turn is not gonig to help the villain. But it doesn't even matter... the villain isn't going to bet the turn with a marginal hand or a draw. He's only going to bet the turn if he's made. Again, we have an easy decision as to what to do in the face of such a bet. Compare that to the situation above, where you have no idea what's going on. And all it cost you was an extra 4K. I contend that is a small price to pay in this hand for the chance to see the river cheap, which will happen more often than not.Lastly, donk would have us all believe that it is a typical line of play for the villain holding AJ/AQ in this situation to bet the flop, call a check raise in the face of a straight and flush draw, and then jam the turn. I happen to think this is a pretty odd way to play that hand. If you think your AJ/AQ is so good that you are willing to jam the turn, why wouldn't you just jam the flop and knock out any draws? A straight or a flush card hits the turnm (like it did), oh great, now our AJ/AQ must really be good... jam away!!! I'm starting to think that you guys play a lot of poker against people who are perfectly happy to bust out of tournaments with marignal hands, just as long as they don't have to think. Maybe this is where you get the idea that it is normal to play this way.P.S, I'm begining to think that ck/fold is a better play than check/call on the flop as well. The problem with this hand is it is highly unikely any card is going to hit the turn that we really like (maybe a 10, but even that isn't near the nuts and completes a straight draw). In that case, it's going to be hard for us to ck/call any normal turn bet unless we have a really good read on our opponent. So if its going to be really hard to call a turn bet, why are we just throwing 4K into the pot. Are we just hoping our oponent is really weak, or misses his draw, or isn't savvy enought to two barrel this pot when we have shown weakness from the beginning? It seems like a lot of wishful thinking. If our intention is to check the turn, then I think the check-call flop is the worst alternative and I'll have to think about it some more to decide if ck/raise or check/fold is best. The latter is certainly more conservative.




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